Been trying to insure my new 32 5 window with Grundy. I sent them an a list of parts and labor to rebuild the body, chop the top, hang and fit the sheet metal, dissemble the body and chassis and prep everything for paint, paint ( black satin ) reassemble everything, wire, install the glass and finish the car to running. The total out side labor totaled about 30,000 dollars and translated into about 600 hours total time. Grundy said this many hours to build a quality hot rod were totally out of line and they took 15,000 off the labor time. they said 300 to 350 hrs to scratch build a car was more realistic. I thought this car went together rather quickly and did not include the time I put into the car. Question is, does 600 hr's sound unreasonable to build a high quality 32 fendered 5 window? Been doing this hot rod thing for over 40 years, I thought I had a good grasp on things?
I can't build a complete car in 300 hrs and I got 40 years of experience. I'm wondering what build time has to do with car value as far as an insurance company would care. There are cars out there that to 100K to build just to be worth half that, hard to do but it can go the other way as well. A car is worth whatever value it has at the time of loss, that's all an insurance company should care about. I think I'd be looking into different carriers.
Tell them that shop labor rate is $90/hr and they are about right on their labor hours.... Sent from my XT1254 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
I guess I don't understand why they care about build hours. When I got insurance from Grundy, I sent photos, described the car and what I thought the car was worth. They agreed and wrote an agreed value policy, done deal. Mick
Hagerty didn't seem to care about build times or detail photos. They were only interested in what I valued the car at and insured the cars at that value. Now it may be different if I was to try to insure an unfinished project car. I can't see anyone building a quality car from scratch in 600 hundred hours......Maybe if you built the same car over and over again from the same brand new body with all new parts......... Personnaly my projects take thousnads of hours, but I am old and slow and try to do as much as possible in my modestly equiped shop.
Yes 600 hours sounds unreasonable to build a nice full fendered car. It would take me easily 3 or 4 times that many hours. Probably more.
That 600 hours was the outside labor to resurrect a rough channeled shell of a body, chop the top, install new wood, fit the body to the frame, hang the sheet metal, gap everything to paint stick gaps. Then onto the paint shop where they dissembled the chassis and sheet metal, prepped the frame and chassis parts for powder paint, prepped and painted all the sheet metal (satin black) under coated the floor, fenders and running boards, reassembled the chassis, reassembled the body and sheet metal back to paint stick gaps, installed the glass, completely wired the car from scratch and took the car to running driving status. In my old age I hire a lot more done and the above was stuff I either couldn't do or didn't want to do. The labor didn't count the labor I contributed by building the chassis and assembling it in bare metal or all the transportation involved. I might be wrong but in my world the above work was a bargain?
I agree with lurker mick, on my current project, and my other two with Grundy, they just ask for pictures and values? Don't understand why a discussion about labor?
600 hrs to build a car is very reasonable. Pretty damn quick actually if you look at the entire scope. Add in that little tid bit of you not including your time. But forget what the number represents and doesn't 600 sound like a big number? It sounds big enough to be able to chop it by 40% and still be substantial- 360 right. If the operations were itemized, and individual hours tallied into smaller groups it's harder to chip 40% off of those and not sound like a complete freaking idiot. Auto insurance companies require and also generate some of the most detailed and broken down estimates I've ever seen. There's a reason for that and it's multi-factorial. There's a reason why shops need to file supplements after supplements on the same job. There's also a reason that people who work off of these auto insurance estimates are mostly all paid flat rate off of that estimate. So, if you'd ask the insurance company to provide their estimate that totaled 350 hrs I'd bet that the details provided should blow your mind. The number of pages should be staggering And I'd bet you find even more details that they missed, about 40% more.
Ask Grundy where "their shop" is located so you can hire them to do the entire job at 300-350 hours and save yourself a few hundred hours labor. I agree on going with agreed value (with someone else). BTW, are talking about a finished, painted, driving car to be insured? If not, I could see why they may be lowballing your labor to pad themselves for insuring what they see as a "mountain of parts fitted together". Even if it's running and driving but still in primer, needing interior and other things finished, some insurance company's balk at insuring an "unfinished project car".
Having over 45 years experience and having done all of the items you have listed as outside work, 600 hours is quick. Ask any good painter that has done many old cars and they will tell you to plan on 80 to 100 hours to prep and paint. Quality metal repairs don't happen overnight either. Your account seems rather generous to me.
I'm having trouble understanding your post/Question. Is this a finished car, or are you trying to insure a project for a finished car's value, or are they questioning the finished car's value?
It's a finished car. Finally got it ironed out. Went higher up the food chain to a senior underwriter who took one look at my list of parts, labor and pictures and approved the amount I thought it was worth. When the nice lady responded back that it was approved she kind of hinted the first underwriter was a rookie. Thanks to all who replied.
Why do you care what they think? as a matter of fact why are you telling them how long it took to build? All that really matters is what it is worth, right? The truth of the matter is that it takes as long as it takes. I been doing this 50 years this year, more if you count the time in the Ol' Man's shop while I was becoming a big kid. I used to work flat rate and make good money at it, I still work flat rate when I am getting paid, but it take me a lot longer than it used to. End of the day it takes as long as it takes.
Porknbeaner is absolutely right. I like to consider myself fast at what I do and it still takes a very long time to do something correctly. I have kept a loose record of time on most of my builds and anything that is custom built should be measured in thousands of hours.
As I stated I did not show all the hours I put in on the car just the outside labor. On my own stuff I work for nothing. I told them the time and materials as they refused to even consider insurance without this list. I also have insured 5 other collector cars with this company and never had a problem. I pay on time and never had a claim but I guess it was my turn to get a rookie underwriter?
That's right. You can put 2000 hrs into micro polishing 50 cent piece. It's worth 50 cents. At one time they'd give a 1/2 million loan on a tool shed. When the $2500 shed burned down someone had to pay up $500,000
with 120 sets of hands going 18 hrs a day they get a car done in a week. It's like 8000 man hrs. 60x18x7
Sounds like Gary was wanting more coverage than Grundy wanted to approve. Just goes to show the quality of his builds. Now on mine they say "are you sure you don't want more coverage?"