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Technical Title buyers beware

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Justin in PA, Feb 16, 2018.

  1. Justin in PA
    Joined: Sep 27, 2017
    Posts: 127

    Justin in PA
    Member

    I generally lurk around here and read all of the really great threads but decided to post something that I wanted to warn people about. There are a slew of titles (so called historical documents) currently on Ebay that are fake and bringing in some big money. There are multiple states but the ones I know for sure to be fake are from Pennsylvania and are Model T, Model A, and 1932 Ford. You can spot them a few ways:
    1. The "annual fee" is simply marked as $4. From the time PA started issuing titles, the annual fee was never less than 10.00 and marked exactly that way.
    2. There is a zip code in the address. The titles listed are what I believe to be the late 30's version (the version number on the back is too blurry to read) . Zip codes didn't come into use until the early 1960's.
    3. The printing is very thick. PA titles had very crisp, clear printing on them with very good detail.
    4. The paper aging, while different among the titles shown, has the same characteristics on the front and back with the same type of rusty, streaked look on the back.
    5. The pictures are extremely blurry.

    I'm only posting this to warn anyone who may be bidding on or looking to bid on one of these. It is virtually impossible to transfer old, open titles anyway but some people are forking over hundreds of dollars for these pieces of toilet paper. The pictures of the 32 Ford title are fake and the Model A title is a real one issued in 1937 for comparison. 32 Fake title 1.jpg 32 Fake title 2.jpg A doc 1.JPG
     
  2. It is an interesting situation since a person can't go to the police and complain. This guy definitely has a good business model. I have noticed a lot of these on EBAY and am surprised they haven't pulled them. I have always played by the rules so I have never had the need to buy a title.

    Charlie Stephens
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
    LOU WELLS and Frankie47 like this.
  3. 41rodderz
    Joined: Sep 27, 2010
    Posts: 6,540

    41rodderz
    Member
    from Oregon

    Ebay does not even follow their own written policies, thye ownly care about their (ebay) bottom line.
     
    Squablow likes this.
  4. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,263

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Not hard, but illegal.

    Using a title for one vehicle, on another vehicle is a felony, in all 50-states, and US territories.
     
    H380 and loudbang like this.

  5. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 4,198

    denis4x4
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Colorado

    Colorado refuses to take any documents created by companies like Broadway Title. Bought a genuine New York Title for a 1927 T roadster and CO rejected it. Ended up going the bonded title route.
     
    gimpyshotrods likes this.
  6. Open titles are not illegal in every state. Thats all you would get from Alabama because they do not issue titles for cars made before 1975. I have tried to get them to do it and they refused, only accepted a bill of sale. I have two cars licensed,insured and legally in my name with open titles from another state. The titles are useless to me as long as I keep the cars. I keep the titles in case I sell them out of state.
    It would be nice if my state did issue titles because I think old cars are more valuable if they have one.
     
    oldsjoe likes this.
  7. corncobcoupe
    Joined: May 26, 2001
    Posts: 7,257

    corncobcoupe
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    Just one of the reasons the HAMB does not allow Titles for sale or wanted.
     
    gimpyshotrods likes this.
  8. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,263

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Not talking about open titles.

    That is the cover story used for title fraud.

    Sent from my SM-G900T using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    56don likes this.
  9. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,263

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Many people seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a vehicle title is, and of its conditional existence.

    A vehicle title is the lawful owner of a vehicle's copy of the legal record of ownership of said vehicle.

    The existence of that document is conditional on two things: legal ownership of the named vehicle, and the existence of the aforementioned vehicle.

    A document that is marked "title", that does not represent an actual piece of corporeal property is not a title.

    In the that case, piece of decorated paper.

    There is no lawful way to sell a title, as a title, without a vehicle. All you are buying is paper.

    If you attempt to use that decorated paper to prove ownership of a vehicle, you are committing fraud.

    Sent from my SM-G900T using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    lonejacklarry and 56don like this.
  10. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 33,861

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I'll throw one more twist in on that. When my aunt gave me my Uncle's old 71 GMC truck they had filed for a lost title on it years before because they couldn't find the title. When she was cleaning out things to move a couple of years later she found the original title in my uncle's name and gave it to me. Meaning that I hold both the current title in my name and the original title in my uncle's name from the mid 70's. That historical document you are buying could be the "lost title" that was found later and ended up in the hands of someone who decided to make a buck on it.
    In this state or at least in the license/title office I go to they send off to Olympia on old titles and the research people there have to go dig the original matching paperwork out of the archives. I had to wait a few days for the paperwork to clear before they issued me the new title on one rig as the old title was out of the system as far as the computer was concerned.
     
  11. Justin in PA
    Joined: Sep 27, 2017
    Posts: 127

    Justin in PA
    Member

    In PA open titles are illegal. If a vehicle happens to be purchased with an old title that is open, an "involuntary transfer of title" can be done through the local court system but costs up to $600 by the time all of the legal ads are placed and court fees are paid and a hearing before a judge.
    Usually I end up with the bad luck of selling cars to dealers that always want the title left open when I sell it because they are notaries and "will take care of it later". Nothing leaves my hands until the title is signed over to the buyer and notarized.
    I do have to say, though, that the old titles are good for display and the really old ones are rather rare and make good wall art. PA started issuing titles in the early '20's from the Department of Highways prior to the Department of Revenue. Odd ball ones like Rickenbackers, and odd ball makes like that, make for good conversation.
     
  12. If you want to go the route of buying a title that does not correspond to the vehicle VIN you are using it for - I have no sympathy for you

    Jim
    F31A84F9-F45D-44FD-B40A-F2C5FDF36019.jpeg
     

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