History History- Some Know it, Some Think They Know It!

so, i get a bad grade in my own class? sorry for that. i thought 29-34 was determined by the ccca, but wrong i guess. maybe the aaca? how about the high end shows, like pebble beach, classic era there? seems funny to me that they would say 1915, as thats still brass era, and 1948 is um... post war maybe? never heard a term for that. where's the dunce hat?...lol

 

You guy's are funny. Did anyone notice the "History" channel logo?

 

I'm not a student of history like Robert.
It has taken a long time but I have come to the realization,
in my opinion, that about half of all history is wrong!
It just takes too long to find out what the "truth" really is
about a lot of things. People tend to remember the things
that interest them most, but people see and remember things
differently, so their interpretations differ.
Also we know that just because it was printed doesn't mean
it's correct. Many times an old photo is much more accurate
than the story that goes with it.
In the fish story, the fish always gets longer with time!
For us, the cars usually get faster as the story gets older!
For me.... "I dig the same things that turned me on as a kid!"
(Beach Boys)
My bucket list never ends.
And I know "traditional" when I see it.
Here is a picture of 2 guys from Kingston.
John Gaddis and his '40 and Mac McCreery and his '31,
courtesy of the Igniters of Kingston car club F.... book page.
The pic is late '50's I think.
I remember these cars cruising in town when I was riding a bicycle.
They were way cool then...... Even more cool now!
I'm done with history for tonight!

 

has anybody seen these two in the same room? ........hmmmmmmm

 

Todays history lessons should just be renamed.. Agenda for today is. there are so many variations to things that happened in the past, you cant possibly be zeroed in on whats correct and whats not. We can get a general idea of how things were and thats as close as it gets.

 

Homer is not even Close. Even this guy doesn't have enough forehead to sport that bandana.
Is it forehead or fivehead. I'm thinking sevenhead, you know ,,,not quite double of an eighthead



Now this is pretty close
Just saying.

 

These all look like modifieds to me ,late 50s early 60s era .....stock car was something else completely

 

A little head never hurt anybody!

 

Yes, modified stock cars. When Bill France formed in 1948 N.A.$.C.A.R. The modifieds were the main division. Strictly stock, which became Grand National what is now known as The Monster Energy series did not form until 1949.
N.A.$.C.A.R. was formed to unified rules for stock cars all over the country. Before N.A.$.C.A.R. rule varied state to state and often the rules differed in parts of the state. Race promoters had a bad habit of leaving during the race taking the gate money and the purse. N.A.$.C.A.R. guaranteed purses.

N.A.$.C.A.R still has a modified division now they have to run spec engines.

Steve Danish's car is a N.A.S.C.A.R. sportsman. in this part of N.Y. (near Albany) the tracks that were N.A.$.C.A.R. ran Sportsman as the main class until 1965



The Nolan Swift 10 Pin is a Super modified because it had a tube frame.

 

N.A.S.C.A.R.-National Association for Stock Car Auto Racing.

N.A.S.C.A.R. sportsman single carb, battery ignition.

N.A.S.C.A.R. modified could run multiple carbs, fuel injection, blowers (very rare) magnetos and after market heads.

N.A.S.C.A.R. Strictly stock just that strictly stock
Glenn Dunaway was flagged the winner however disqualified because his car had spreaders on the rear spring. (Not strictly stock)
The win was instead awarded to Jim Roper.

Stock Cars-


Open Wheel-

 

Extremely interesting thread!

Words that should be used with caution, especially in discussing history: first, last, never, always.

As to the "first" muscle car? Don't know, but if the criteria is the factory stuffing their largest engine in the smallest frame, one earlier than the 1964 GTO would be the 1930 Packard model 734. Packard even put larger carburetion on their Super 8 engine when they stuffed it in the Standard 8 chassis.

Robert - keep up the good work!

Jon.

 

N.A.$.C.A.R. had a Big Car (Indy) class. Called the Speedway division. It ran only 1952.
It was a division with passenger car engines in Indianapolis type cars

Steve McGrath of New Canaan CT with the Lincoln Special


Speedy Thompson ran this GMC powered car for owner Buddy Shuman in the NASCAR Speedway Division race


Russ Royce NASCAR Speedway Division and it was at Martinsville


Wally Campbell scored the victory in the NASCAR Speedway Division race at Greensboro Fairgrounds


As well as Sports car division




Ak Keller


Tim Flock

 

That would be something if the Count made the cover of National Geographic some 100 years from now as being the 4th find linked to these.

 

So your going to lump all of those into "stock car" cause NASCAR had a class for them at one point?

 

NASCAR'S Speedway division ran in 1953 also. Pete Allen was the champion that year.

 

No that is the history of NASCAR.

Not all stock car were NASCAR, U.S.A.C. had a ran stock cars as well and there is A.R.C.A and many outlaw style cars.

You said the cars I posted were modifieds not stock cars when as I said they are modified stock cars. Which along with sportsman were racing before strictly stocks (which were not very popular at first) came along. It really wasn't until Detroit got behind it that the strictly stocks took off.

I think you were thinking strictly stock as being the only type of stock cars.

 

The AAA began a stock car class around 1950. Many of the AAA champ car drivers like Ruttman, Sweikert Linden etc. drove the cars. After the AAA gave up sanctioning racing in 1955, USAC absorbed the class.

 

I thought they ran I 1953 but I could not find anything in any of my books or on the interweb. I wasn't going to post some thing I couldn't prove, I learned my lesson!

Yes, this is what I getting at I now remember A.A.A. ran stock car, many people have argued with me that A.A.A (or 3 A as many old timers call it) even sectioned races.

 

Info on the NASCAR Champ Div. can be pretty slim at best. Here's some from Champ Car Stats.- Also it may be of interest, that NASCAR sanctioned midget racing in the 1960s, mainly during the off season in the deep south/Fla. area.

 

I wonder if Swift's modified ended up being one of his Oswego supers ?

Nice shot of Richie Evan's coupe in your other post.

 

From what I can find it race1961 through 1974



The chassis is now under a street drive 34 Ford I say old race cars should stay old race cars not be street driven!

From-http://car-us.com/car/ford-other/7749

 

Thank you.

I don't claim a great depth of knowledge about eastern modifieds, but I wonder if that car wasn't meant to be a super from the onset. The tube frame, especially a four bar, was not what I'm used to seeing from that era and the engine offset was not common practice at that time either.

Edit : Then again, I should read the captions more carefully.

 

This car was a run as Super.


The Super modified started out as basically modifieds with out fenders. Then by mid 60's they lost the bodies, and just kept getting more crazy.



It has Four wheels, Three on the right one on the left!

 

Robert comments: "The innovations, craftsmanship and history in the other parts of the hobby are being over looked."
I love learning about how things came to be back in the day. Most manufacturers likely had "experimental parts" that were cast then tested and modified as needed before production. Some of these parts never made it directly to production in the short run (e.g., aluminum SBC blocks cast in 1959, Rochester fuel injection for a 409, etc.) but they do (did?) exist. There are some well-connected and determined folk who chase these parts, and I commend them for their efforts, and their passion to share these finds. Studying these developments gives a more detailed picture of what might have gone on in these "skunkworks" (is that one word or two? is it correct to use?) back in the day, assuming you weren't there firsthand. One can only dream about being there in the mix, but the resulting evidence (the experimental parts, etc.) does tell us a story of some sort, open to interpretation.

I have a colleague who does just that, seeks out rare and unusual experimental parts, then tries to connect history as best as one can to these finds. I was lucky to have one small piece of what has now become part of his collection (the earliest known "068" casting for a 409 block dated April 24, 1961). Pieces like that begin to "tell a story" about what might have happened back on the line in the early 60s, which to me is fascinating.

Cheers!
Tom

 

It is time to bring this thread to a close.
I made my augments most of you understood my point, and the ones who did not understand never will.
In the end I hope I changed some mines, made some people think, as well as making some more interested in other parts of the automotive hobby. I learned some things as well.

Thank-You to every one who posted.
Robert J. Palmer

 

I think that is a great idea. @Robert J. Palmer. Under the H.A.M.B. MESSAGE BOARD guidelines I see traditional Hot rods/customs being the guideline. This discussion began and ended as anything but...nothing wrong with trying to learn history, but did we achieve anything but a typical FaceBook post. ‘‘Tis better to sit in silence and be thought a fool, than to speak an Remove all doubt.” I’m not referring to you R.J. Youropinion is every bit as important as a senior member of this message board, but please post relative to the guidelines, and maybe we can all benefit.


Sent from my iPad using H.A.M.B.

 

History is only as accurate as it is recorded by those who experienced it. None of us have experienced but a few grains of it. That is why it is so important for each of us to recall those grains as accurately as possible. It doesn't matter how important you think it is. Chances are some of it will find it's way on social media and some day be discussed like this thread. Most of us don't really care if everything is accurate or not. The accuracy is not as important as a good story. And many of those good stories are meant purely for entertainment and a good laugh or the "wow" factor. You have heard many yourself over a beer. I'm not talking about matters of opinion. There are a good 50 cars that are considered the first muscle car. That will never be settled because you won't change many minds. I have several opinions of cars myself I struggle over. But facts are a different story. When it comes to something you have experienced it is your responsibility to "tell it like it is" accurately. That is the only hope it will be remembered accurately by your family and others long after you are gone.

 

I said that earlier in the thread.......or something of that nature...... and I'm NOT on FB. NOT TYPICAL.

 

OK the last word and yes I read too much:
In Einsteins 1905 paper "On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies" he states in short (without a hour long physics discussion) that 2 observers can see the same event with DIFFERENT but BOTH true interpretations of the event. Example: I am on a speeding train You are on the platform. As the train speeds by the platform I lean out the window and drop a bowling ball. I observe the ball falling straight to the ground (as I am moving at the same rate forward as the ball), You observe the ball falling to the ground in a long elliptical arc ( you being stationary relative to the train) as the ball to YOU is moving forward (at the speed of the train) and downward (hence the long arc).
Hence we can all see and experience the same events at the same time, but have DIFFERENT and ACCURATE interpretations of said events depending on our unique perspective. That is why a good detective will interview EVERY witness even if the first 100 gave the same story.
Time for the next thread Robert

 

[History-
It's written by the victors.
It's taught by the government.
Enforcement by the media.

........and when the victor's "alternate version" becomes inconvenient, It is rehashed to fit the current zeitgeist.
That's why I love the HAMB. A lot of this history is esoteric and is being imparted by those who were there. No better information than first hand.
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." -Joseph Goebbels