Technical What's up with round axles...?

I don't see these very often but my car has a round axel...
I am lookin for info on these as I am fixin to completely remove the front suspension and replace some of the components....spring, shackles etc...
Why don't you see many of these...?
Are they better or not as good as other types...?
Who makes them and why...?
To replace the spindles do they accept a typical "round" type...? (mine are Chevy)
Thanx for any info given!

 

Very popular axle in the 70's and later. Likely a Super Bell tube axle. Still very good product imo. Tim

 

Its a matter of looks, when all you could find was I beam axles the tube was the new, cool, part to have ,then when good dropped I beams be came more available lots of people decided they wanted those.

 

Based on the Ford V8 60 tube axle

 

They're termed a tube axle, or dropped tube axle. They have little or no torsional twist unlike an I beam and accordingly don't tend to work well with split wishbones or hairpins. Four bars are the way to go, as you appear to already have. I've successfully used hairpins with a dropped tube but all of the fixings were urethane bushed.

 

Pretty sure that’s an aftermarket piece. Tube axles were stock on ‘37-‘40 V8-60 cars. They work great on stock wishbones, but everyone warns against split bones as they put undue twist in the axle. Not sure on a 4-link like you have there. I-beams can stand twist...tubes not so much.

EDIT: You guys are fast on the draw!!!

 

Midget, Sprintcars, and Indycar ran tube axles with hairpins starting just after the war.

Modern Midget, Sprintcars and D.I.R.T. Modifieds run tube axles with a Four link.

 

What you have is a "classic" Pete & Jakes 4 bar front end. Super Bell axle w/ Ford Spindles and disc brakes. Rotors can have Ford or Chevy bolt pattern. It also has a Mustang steering box and bolt on arms. Also a Posie Super Slide spring. What you have is the best technology from 1974, the only upgrade since is the Vega cross steer box.

If you want your front end to look different, knock yourself out & spend money. Nothing will work better than what you've got. Might work as good, but not better. Replace the urethane bushings and the teflon buttons in the spring. Paint or powdercoat, new shocks and brake pads and you're good to go.

 

Like redo32 said it also looks to me like you have Ford spindles and they appear top be '37-'41 round backs. You may think they are Chevrolet because of the Chevy bolt circle on the rotors. Another indicator is the king pin inclination (as viewed from the front) which to me looks like Ford 8°, as compared to Chevrolet spindles that are only 4°. There was a time when Super Bell and other manufacturers offered axles for either spindle but I'm sure yours is machined for Ford spindles.

 

I’ve always thought a tube axle and hairpins would give a fair amount of anti-roll, as various parts will flex to a degree. Assuming they don’t break...

 

midgets and sprints almost always run a 3 link-2 radius rod on the right and one on the left.the few cars that run a 4 link use a sleeve on one side of the axle to mount the radius rods to keep everything from binding

 

P.S.-CAE called theirs a "swing sleeve"-it appears like hairpin rods on both sides,but the left mount is free to pivot on the axle

 

Yes that is a four link, however virtually everyone uses one radius rod that is sleeved and spring loaded allowing a little telescoping action to eliminate the small amount of bind that otherwise would take place...we used to use a heim joint on the rear of the top LF radius rod with a 5/8 bore and a 1/2 inch bolt with a selflocking nut just short of clamping tightly to allow a little " rattle" and eliminate the bind but provide the necessary strength if the driver struck something with the LF wheel.

 

FYI
Other manufacturers used them as well.
I believe that Dodge / Pontiac? also came with a tube axle in 1935, ( maybe other years also) with parallel front springs.

 

Thanx for that info I am confused about the Ford/Chevy hub/spindle thing...
Yes the bolt pattern is Chevy as the rotors are Chevy and the calipers are GM metrics...I know because I replaced them...
I wish they could be Ford as having Ford rears and Chevy fronts makes it hard to choose wheels as they are different (Ford 8.8 rear end)....there is no "set" of wheels that fit all four corners...unless aftermarket universal lug pattern type wheels...
If I wanted to go to Ford wheels by changing the spindles would I have to ditch the GM metric calipers...? I would love to have a Ford bolt pattern up front however I recently installed new Wilwood calipers (and pads) and they were quite expensive and I am not going to replace those again! LOL I would not be opposed to buying new rotors but NOT calipers...
The steering box IS Vega type as I replaced that too years ago...
I have no plans to ditch the axel....
Thanx for your input!

 

Thanx for the input! Please see reply to redo32 as it applies to your reply as well

 

You need a set of GM rotors with Ford bolt pattern. Decades ago, Rodders went through the pains of having a machine shop redrill rotor bolt patterns, repress studs.
Now they're a click away. It's cheaper than machine work and you walk away with new rotors in the swap. Thes may not be the exact part, but once you have everything apart and start measuring, you'll be looking for something like this.

Info
1973-1977 GM rotor redrilled to the 5 x 4-1/2" Ford bolt pattern. To be used with our #7024475 GM metric caliper adapter kit for disc brakes on a 1937-1948 Ford car spindle. Very common rotor to use as a conversion rotor. Has 1/2" fine wheel studs.

NOT interchangable with rotor 91031066. If you have brackets and adapters designed for the Granada rotor, use part #91031066.

Notes
Replacement studs are # 91005915 or Dorman # 610176. Use caliper adapter kit # 7024475 for disc brakes on '37-'48 Ford car spindle.

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/11-Inch-GM-Brake-Rotor-with-Ford-Bolt-Pattern,4311.html

 

Volare rotors were used for the 4 1/2" pattern.

 

WOW....thanx man Great news...!

 

I am starting to gear up to freshen up my front end now...
I sure could use some guidance along the way

I intend on replacing the spindles with this kit as it includes everything and uses needle bearings vs bushings...
Thoughts about using this kit...?
Will these work with my present rotors which are Chevy...they are Wilwood rotors and I do not want to replace them
Also...do I have to worry about the condition of the holes in my axle where the kingpin goes or is all of that wear strictly in the old bushings...? (I have never done this before)
Also...with bearings vs bushings I assume that makes for an easier install because I will not have to do any "reaming" of bushings...????
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedway-1928-1948-Ford-Forged-Spindles-w-Deluxe-King-Pins,36302.html

What are your thoughts on using the adjustable perches to make caster adjustments without putting the spring shackles in a bind...???
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Forged-Adjustable-Spring-Perches-Polished-Stainless,38960.html

FYI...I have already purchased the following items for this project...

https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Super-Glide-Front-Spring-48-Inch-Axle-Reverse-Eye-Plain,7368.html
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Nylon-Shackle-Kits-1-3-4-Inch-Wide-Spring,2083.html?sku=91033323-ZINC
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Replacement-Nylon-Shackle-Bushings-1-3-4-Inch-Spring,35665.html
As I did when I redid my rear suspension I will replace the four bar ends with these heim joints...
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Chromoly-Heim-Joint-Rod-Ends-5-8-18-RH-Male-1-2-Inch-Hole,28462.html

Help and advise is always appreciated and I am sure that these will not be the last questions I will have before this project is over! LOL

 

Since so many have answered I'll say it. Your title before reading the tread had me thinking "how else does one expect an axle to rotate?".

 

Unless the spindles were shot why would you change the spindles when you can swap rotors on those spindles? I can see swapping the rotors to have matching bolt pattens front and rear and that is given.
That spring you are looking at doesn't look much different as far as ride height than the spring you now have. In fact the spring you have is a better quality spring than the Speedway as those dimples in it hold Teflon or some other similar material biscuits that let the springs slide when you are going over bobbles in the street giving a smoother ride. I think if you look in Posie's catalog you will see that spring and the replacement pieces. Link shows the spring they sell now has rounded corners http://www.posiesrodsandcustoms.com/super_slide_springs/28_43_springs/
A bit of grinding to round the corners a bit and a clean up and paint job and new slide pads and it is all new again.
Same with the 4 bar ends, why not just change the biscuits and forget the Heim ends that don't dampen the jolts but actually transfer them plus they don't tend to last that long if you drive the car a lot. They are designed for equipment that gets serviced all the time and gets lubed all the time.
You have a front end that probably has worked without issues for 30 or maybe 40 years on that car and outside of probably needing freshening up and a lug bolt pattern swap doesn't need much more.

 

Your wasting money, why replace the spindles? I assume the gents above are correct, you already have the spindles on the car you need.

As far as the needle bearings again I see no reason for them. Bronze bushings are well proven design if you keep them greased. If the original pins are tight I'd leave them alone.

Last I wouldn't put heim joints on it if you plan on street driving much. Sure they work on a race car but a race car suspension isn't designed for a smooth ride or taking corners. Rubber/urethane ends will do both better.

Sure it's great to throw money at things but it's better to do it for a good reason and to improve upon something. Save the money for other items you may need. Other than maybe wore out king pin bushings your list is just wasting money on something you already have or don't need.

 

Shit Gee ya beat me too it. I was gonna say "Because square ones don't roll so good." I think it's official, we're both experienced smart asses.

 

Okie, read what lostone said above. He is absolutely correct on all counts. It seems you are a little unsure of what you need, and how to get there.

Have you checked to see if those rotors that Hot Rods Ta Hell mentioned would work on your setup? They seem the best bet if they fit.

 

Tube axles are not popular on the HAMB. They have been around forever, some were done to save weight and others just as an option to the old Henry. Nothing wrong with one that is well built.

I got one in the garage now that was built in the early to mid '60s, long before Super Bell. I eventually will use it but probably not today.

Best way to deteri min what parts you need to buy is first determine what parts are already on your axle. Looks like yours is set up for spindles other than Ford for example. GM spindles were popular at one time, determining what bungs are on the end of the axle will let you know what king pins you need if the king pins need to be replaced. Spring bushings are just spring bushings, you will need to figure out what springs you are using an your brakes are going to be determined by what calipers you have.

 

Beaner, he does have Ford style spindles. They might be repro, but they have the same shape as a 37-41 roundback Ford spindle.

 

OK I see it now.

 

OK...lots to address here...thanx to all that contributed

1...The GM rotors with Ford bolt pattern thing...
Forget this....although this was brought up it is NOT part of what I am trying to do right now...I am fine with this the way it is...maybe later I will address this...

2...The spring...after looking that the Posi link, thanx to Mr48chev I agree...the spring I have now is a better spring and I will rebuild IT rather than replace it with an inferior spring...AND I can know that my ride ht and stance will remain the same...I was worried about that...

3...The spindles...ya...mine are kinda beat up...mostly the threads where the spindle nut goes on...they have been around the block a few times if you know what I mean...
Also...I hafta confess to that I like the idea of bearings vs bushings and I am a little intimidated by the reaming etc of replacing bushings...

4...Heim joints...to be honest...the fixed angle on my 4 bars does not appear to be exactly correct...which to me, means they are in a slight bind...in my mind the heim joints would eliminate that and I would still have the bushing at the fixed end for "cushion".... Keep in mind that I drive this car around town...smooth roads and short trips...only occasionally taking it out of town, and then I am on very smooth highway type roads...thought and opinions welcomed...

FYI...most of my past cars have been muscle cars and did not have suspensions anything like these...therefore I am a complete rookie at this and just trying to figure it out...with your help of course...
As always thank you for all of your help and input...

 

1. OK, wait til you are ready.

2. Good, save some money.

3. Now you at least know what kind of spindles you need to replace the current ones. As for the bearings on kingpins, MANY hot rodders think this is snake oil. There have been many millions of miles put on regular bushings on regular kingpins, and I would bet a LOT less on needle bearings. Before you purchase, Google the term "brinell" and look at what needle bearings can do to a shaft that doesn't turn much (like you do when you drive in a straight line for thousands of miles).

4. Heim joints might have more movement, but they have zero impact absorption and will require constant cleaning and oiling to prevent premature wear. A better solution to the misalignment would be the four-bar ends with an adjustable angle built in ( http://www.kugelkomponents.com/zenc...id=175&zenid=42e84f628a049257e8971112a8b664c0 ). They can align to any angle you need, then tighten the bolt and you are good to go. Or you could fix it for free with a hacksaw and welder by cutting the four-bar mounts off, and rewelding them on at the correct angle.