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Technical '53 5 Window Starting Trouble

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Zac B, Sep 28, 2017.

  1. Zac B
    Joined: Jul 21, 2016
    Posts: 64

    Zac B
    Member
    from Norman, OK

    Greetings,
    I recently brought a 1953 Chevrolet 5 window back from the dead (was parked in an old Oklahoma barn for at least the last 25 years). I've put a bunch of work into the truck and the truck starts and runs great now...except after I drive it around town for 5-10 mins and park and shut it off, it will not start under its own power right away. It moans and groans & never gets going fast enough to kick over. If you wait a few hours it will fire right up. I know the old 6 volt system can be slow to start, but what would be the reason it starts so good on the first start of the day, then struggles to start after it's driven around a few minutes? I have new battery cables and new 6v battery. The starter has been replaced sometime in the past (see pic). The engine is a 1954 model 235 that was implanted into the 1953 pickup by previous owner. Any suggestions are much appreciated.
    Signed,
    "The guy push starting that old truck in the wal mart parking lot..."
     

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  2. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,933

    squirrel
    Member

    How thick are the battery cables? If they are designed for 12v cars, then they are probably too thin to carry the current that a 6v system uses (it takes twice as much current at half the voltage, to transmit the same amount of power)
     
  3. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 6,913

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    And (queue the chorus), "Make sure the grounds are good".
     
    Zac B likes this.
  4. Make sure that you have a "Vented Gas Cap"
     

  5. Zac B
    Joined: Jul 21, 2016
    Posts: 64

    Zac B
    Member
    from Norman, OK

    I'll double check the cables in the morning. Read that guys get some from napa that have solved some problems in the past.
     
  6. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,933

    squirrel
    Member

    First make sure ALL the connections are clean and tight....positive, negative, ground, starter housing itself to the bellhousing, etc.
     
    Zac B likes this.
  7. I would remove and scrape,clean,wire brush all ground points then re-attach.
     
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  8. motion guru
    Joined: Oct 18, 2009
    Posts: 169

    motion guru
    Member
    from yacolt, wa

    IMG_0853.JPG As Jim said, your cables need to carry double the current compared to a 12 V system. This is a 2/0 cable from the battery to the starter and I ran a double braided cable from the battery to the frame and another braided cable from the frame to the bellhousing. At 9:1 compression it still starts hot just fine.

    Also, I see you are running a direct coil contact sir from your starter switch presumably to your coil. This is normally done to bypass a ballast resistor. Get rid of the resistor on a 6V system and make sure your coil resistance is 1.5 Ohms or less. I ran a 0.6 ohm coil with a pertronix on 6V and that made a world of difference with hot starts on a high compression 270 inline six.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2017
    302GMC and Zac B like this.
  9. I see a bunch of stuff going on in your first two pictures. First like it's already been said, clean the contact points for the ground cable from the engine to the frame, from the battery to the frame, and put fatter battery cable on it. But you really need to make sure all the connections are clean, I can't stress that enough. I run a 6 volt Optima battery in my 6 volt car and that made a world of difference.
     
    fourspeedwagon and Zac B like this.
  10. Check the solenoid contacts, if burned or pitted, could cause this problem.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  11. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 5,325

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    Surprised it starts at all, even invisible corrosion on grounds and connections is enough to seriously hork starting (and charging) current. Once you can see the rust and corrosion it will eventually fail. Those look like 12 volt cables, need to use 00 gauge cables for 6 volt systems. Grind down to bright shiny metal on the main ground points and connecting points at block frame and firewall and tighten securely.


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     
  12. Zac B
    Joined: Jul 21, 2016
    Posts: 64

    Zac B
    Member
    from Norman, OK

    IMG_5431.JPG IMG_5432.JPG Thanks for all of the input. I plan on checking and cleaning all contact points this morning and upgrading battery cables to the 2-00. Here's a pic of what cables are on the truck right now. I'm not expert, but they look like 12v cables. Thanks again for all the help!
     
  13. GordonC
    Joined: Mar 6, 2006
    Posts: 3,141

    GordonC
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Can someone explain why a cold start works fine as stated above but a hot start is more difficult with incorrect battery cables? Is it due to heat and expansion? A hot engine starts harder than a cold one? Not being a smart ass would like to know.
     
  14. farmalldan
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 141

    farmalldan
    Member
    from Duncan, OK

    Zac,
    Here's one from left field. Make sure generator polarity and battery ground are consistent. Parents had a tractor many years ago that would start fine every morning and function perfectly until shut down for lunch. After lunch, starter would barely turn engine over, resulting in a no start. After several hours of resting, the tractor would crank normally and start. After a great deal of searching, problem was finally found. Recently replaced battery was installed with negative ground. Tractor was positive ground. During operation, the generator would discharge the battery and result in a no start when hot. (Hot actually had nothing to do with it. It was a time issue.) The 6 volt battery was able to recover enough energy over a few hours of resting to crank the tractor again. Correcting battery ground polarity solved the problem. So I suggest you either polarize the generator or verify correct battery polarity.
    Good luck,
    Danny
     
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  15. TagMan
    Joined: Dec 12, 2002
    Posts: 6,294

    TagMan
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    All of the above and, if the problem persists, try a new / different coil. I've had a couple in the past that would break down in the hot engine compartment. Leave the vehicle sit for 15-20 minutes and it started right up. Especially sensitive on 6v systems.
     
  16. motion guru
    Joined: Oct 18, 2009
    Posts: 169

    motion guru
    Member
    from yacolt, wa

    Several temperature related things can combine to make things more difficult for the starter.

    Compression generally improves on a warm engine compared to a cold engine making the engine harder to turn over.

    With a heat soaked starter - the field and armature winding resistance goes up - making current (and magnetic field strength used to spin the rotor) go down for a fixed battery voltage.

    Both of these can combine for a slow cranking motor and high pull on the battery causing lower battery voltage which also contributes to a weak spark . . . everything is going against you and at 6V, you can get voltage drop of 1 - 2 volts (up to 1/3rd your voltage potential) . . . comparted to a 12V where 1-2 volts is far less of a percentage drop in potential.
     
    GordonC likes this.
  17. Sheep Dip
    Joined: Dec 29, 2010
    Posts: 1,572

    Sheep Dip
    Member
    from Central Ca

    Looks like a well "Seasoned" battery. It appears you put a used battery in it.
     
  18. 302GMC
    Joined: Dec 15, 2005
    Posts: 7,856

    302GMC
    Member
    from Idaho

    When you replace that battery, buy one from a TRUCK battery supplier. The Walmart/Pep Boys batteries have tiny, short plates and no capacity. Truck batteries are still full of plates & acid ....
    And your starter looks suspicious. The blue paint & 12v switch would make me want to tear it apart to see what else I could find.
     
  19. Zac B
    Joined: Jul 21, 2016
    Posts: 64

    Zac B
    Member
    from Norman, OK

    I swapped out the ground cable with the new 2-00 and cleaned up some contact points and it's firing much better than it did. My winter project is to go through the wiring and redo most of it and clean it up. I'll plan on a new 6v battery soon as well. I also think the blue starter looks out of place so I'll probably replace it sometime in the near future. Thanks for all the suggestions!
     
  20. Petejoe
    Joined: Nov 27, 2002
    Posts: 12,263

    Petejoe
    Member
    from Zoar, Ohio

    Hell that battery is 10 yrs old according to the date code.
    I'd bet it hasn't been tested.
    Time for a new one.
     
  21. GordonC
    Joined: Mar 6, 2006
    Posts: 3,141

    GordonC
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Thanks motion guru.
     
  22. Model A Gomez
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,695

    Model A Gomez
    Member

    I had a 56 that did the same thing and finally figured out the bronze bearings were bad and when it got warm it allowed the starter armature suck over to the side and drag. could start it every time when cold, drive it a while, shut it off and wouldn't start for an hour or so.
     
  23. You'll notice the clip on the frame that the positive cable goes through- now look at Motion Guru's. That clip is filled with cable. Make yours look like his, to go along with the new ground strap. The positive cable you need isn't that long thankfully, since the battery is under the floor right behind the starter. As stated, a battery from the current decade will help too. I've gone through these same things on my '51 (gmc) and really like the optima batteries. Several of those skinny optima 6 volt batteries used in my cars.
     
  24. Zac B
    Joined: Jul 21, 2016
    Posts: 64

    Zac B
    Member
    from Norman, OK

    I've been driving the truck around the past couple days and it's been firing much better since just cleaning the terminals and adding the new 2-00 ground cable to a freshly cleaned spot on the frame. I plan to pick up a new 6v battery here in the next week or so.
     
    squirrel likes this.
  25. Truck64
    Joined: Oct 18, 2015
    Posts: 5,325

    Truck64
    Member
    from Ioway

    Not trying to beat up on you, trying to help you. In those pics can see problems. Yeah so maybe it's not a concours restoration, but notice all the crud and skunge on the battery top? This will tend to draw a battery down. Keep battery clean. Windex works good for this, it helps neutralize the acid. It also looks like there's no hold down, and battery is more or less loose in the tray. Battery shouldn't be able to move or bounce, they can get plate damage this way.
     

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