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Technical can I swap 1993 5.0 ford internals into a 1971 302 block

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by nobby, Aug 26, 2017.

  1. nobby
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 1,206

    nobby
    Member

    Hello,
    I have a 1971 mexico block on stock bore
    I have bare 1968 302 2v heads c8oe heads - 63cc
    I have the early timing cover and pump

    will buy an early sump and oil pump, as I know they differ
    can I simply go out and buy a late model roller engine and swap everything in
    crank, rods, pistons
    complete valve train

    does the 2 piece seal fit the crank

    I need to keep the numbers on the block and heads pre 1975
     
  2. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 3,479

    dumprat
    Member
    from b.c.

    Sort of but no. And it is not really worth it.
    You can swap in the late roller cam, that is easy.
    The heads are the good part of the 5.0 but the rest of the engine is sort of different. The balance is different.

    Build 5.0 with all the 5.0 parts. Unless you are restoring something the 71 is not great shakes.

    I went the other way and put a 289 crank in a 5.0 block for the short stroke. There is some machine work needed to make the rear main work.
     
  3. treb11
    Joined: Jan 21, 2006
    Posts: 3,947

    treb11
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Simpler to get a rotating assembly ready to drop in. Everything will fit correctly and no half ass adapting of everything.

    Sent from my SM-G550T using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    Lowdownfab likes this.
  4. deathrowdave
    Joined: May 27, 2014
    Posts: 3,518

    deathrowdave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from NKy

    You can epoxy nuts to hold lifter retainers , but the issue using a later roller cam in early block is cam offset centerline is different . Requires some one off stuff or special regrind of the cam . Better off to use late block and use early timing cover , fuel pump eccentric , roller cam Dist gear , carb and intake . I have done many this way and the will haul the mail home for you .


    Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
     

  5. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 23,263

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Use the later engine, whole.

    Keep the hood shut.

    I'm a problem solver.
     
  6. LM14
    Joined: Dec 18, 2009
    Posts: 1,936

    LM14
    Member Emeritus
    from Iowa

    The later blocks use a taller lifter bore to contain the oil holes on the taller roller lifters. The only way to run a stock hydraulic roller safely in an early block is use a reduced base circle cam. You would just be better off buying the rotating mass of your choice and an aftermarket roller setup if you are dead set on running the early block. You would also be better off selling the Mexican block to a racer that thinks he needs it to help fund a 5.0 build. Why not just run the 5.0 stuff? Can be made to look just like an early engine.
     
  7. glrbird
    Joined: Dec 20, 2010
    Posts: 601

    glrbird
    Member

    All giving advice read the last line of the question
     
    slim38 and bathcollector like this.
  8. Nobby, why do you find the hard way to everything? Or so it seems.
     
  9. JeffB2
    Joined: Dec 18, 2006
    Posts: 9,484

    JeffB2
    Member
    from Phoenix,AZ

    Good SBF Tech site is here ;) www.sbftech.com If you plan on racing it the Mexican block is stronger I would get a 347 stroker kit instead of trying to swap in roller parts and stay with your 2 pc rear main and get some heads that will really flow the stock ones you have are not known for that. If the car is a cruiser just swap in the roller motor,what do you want to put the engine in ?
     
  10. Phil1934
    Joined: Jun 24, 2001
    Posts: 2,716

    Phil1934
    Member

  11. southcross2631
    Joined: Jan 20, 2013
    Posts: 4,413

    southcross2631
    Member

    I would build a nice 331 stroker and work your early heads. The bottle neck is the exhaust side.
    Just use a good flat tappet hydraulic cam.
     
  12. nobby
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 1,206

    nobby
    Member

    hello, I need to run pre 75 stuff for emissions reasons
    I have the early block and heads
    a motor has come up for sale, that I thought I could pillage for its crank and rods and pistons and valve train.
    I gather now I can't use the valve train....
    can I still use its crank rods and pistons?
    It would be beneficial as I want to use the later manual flywheel I have
    even though I have an earlier one too
    is the early flywheel suitable for a fox bell house and t5?

    heads, cleaned up a bit, c8oe-j I think the valves are stock @ 1.78 -
    can you tell me if 1.84 later valves simply don't fit as they are longer?
    and I need to get 1.78
    63cc, does that mean I can run unleaded as they are low comp, same comp as later stuff?
    and that they will be correct with a non HO later piston

    p.s.
    getting a crank in is the next hurdle, I want to run a 17'' stock engine driven fan
    sort out the pulleys
    see if the hydraulic bearing from the Camaro t5 will work with ford mustang clutch parts
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
  13. JeffB2
    Joined: Dec 18, 2006
    Posts: 9,484

    JeffB2
    Member
    from Phoenix,AZ

    Cheap inexpensive trick for the early Ford heads is right here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1981-1995-C...ash=item5443585267:g:zI8AAOSwpDdVJaVs&vxp=mtr 1.84's and 1.5's ;) 1965-1982 SBF's 221,260.289 & 302's have a 28 oz balance factor so the harmonic balancer and flywheels must match. 1983 and later 302's aka 5.0 have a 50 oz balance factor so the balancer and the flywheel must match getting that wrong will cause a severe vibration and possible engine damage. Here is a little section on codes so you should be looking for parts starting with a "C" or "D" to have the 28 oz factor. http://www.mre-books.com/interchange/interchange2.html
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  14. Bob Labla
    Joined: Aug 15, 2012
    Posts: 69

    Bob Labla
    Member
    from mitten

    My little truck has a 1980 302 block with a later 5.0 crank and a flat tappet cam. Works fine.
     
  15. finn
    Joined: Jan 25, 2006
    Posts: 1,280

    finn
    Member

    I remember that there are at least two front cover / pointer/ damper configurations too. Mismatched parts make it difficult to time the engine.
     
  16. nobby
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 1,206

    nobby
    Member

    let me write it here as I will forget what I need.
    I have a chevy t5 - 26 spline input @ 1 1/8'' - even though its ford fitting not Muncie
    so it fits the fox mustang bell = input shaft length is 9 1/4, so is the ford
    ford is 10 spline friction disc at 10.4'' 1 1/8
    chevy Camaro/firebird with t5 is 10.4'' friction and 26 spline 1 1/8
    [I think my early ford flywheel is only 10'' friction]
    so I can use the 50oz ford 10.4 flywheel, with a chevy friction and ford pressure plate.
    late style starter
    ------------------------------------
    I can use a late crank in a 71 block, with the late flywheel and front harmonic damper 50 ounces
    even if its from an automatic trans car?????????????
    use its rods and pistons
    'are 5.0 gt mustang pistons different from other cars? with regards to either valve clearance and compression ratio
    are 5.0gt mustangs 63cc chambers
    ------------------------------------
    buy a flat tappet hhydraulic manual camshaft with the same specs as a 5.0gt mustang
    fuel pump eccentric -are there one style/offset?
    dizzy drive for that cam to match a hei
    use 5.0 gt weight valve springs
    fit 1.84 in and 1.5 out valves to my 63cc heads mustang 5.0gt spec - even if they are chevy ones
    fit new guides and seats
    have a 78 front cover - find out the timing pointer with a edelbrock 65 style passenger/chevy side outlet

    so, in short it will be a 5.0 gt using early block and heads
    great.
    thanks all, that makes it all a bit simpler to source/ keeps it simple
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  17. Beanscoot
    Joined: May 14, 2008
    Posts: 3,053

    Beanscoot
    Member

    221 and 260 engines do not have the same imbalance as the 289 / early 302 / 351. Your flywheel with a casting code of C3OE could be from a 221, 260 or 289, the "B" suffix will help to ascertain which. There should also be a circled letter stamped in, as well as a date code. These should nail down exactly which engine the flywheel came from (and thus the imbalance it has).

    Starter motors are different for manual vs. automatic transmissions. The auto version's pinion gear projects further.

    5.0 GT pistons are similar to typical small block pistons, and originals were forged. There were many different pistons used in the 302/5.0 engines over the years, so technically, 5.0 GT pistons are not the same as other pistons. There are oddball 1986 pistons and heads, the pistons are true flattops with no valve reliefs and heads have differences with the valve heights or geometry, but I don't recall the valve details.

    There were some 1970s 302s with slightly different deck heights as well, but I don't know if this applied to the Mexican engines.

    The front dampers are the same for automatic or manual transmissions. Fuel pump eccentrics are all functionally the same, I think they come in one or two piece design.
     
  18. nobby
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 1,206

    nobby
    Member

    aha!
    I think I did good on the manual starter.
    I think its an auto trans that the Bendix sticks out 3/8 or 10mm
    and a manual 1/4''
    because the ring gear on a flywheel is engine side rather than trans side
    I think I do have a manual starter 1/4!! - i.e. if its an auto one in a manual, it flicks out too far and jams?
    I think this is another eason for the later flywheel? - tooth count?

    this valve thing is puzzling me
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361907114599?clk_rvr_id=1295624027275&rmvSB=true
    I am thinking, stainless steel valves x16 real cheap
    is it simply because they are destined for a 305 and its the "you may aswell go 350"?
    you can buy 1.84 1.5 ford valves

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/1981-1995-C...ash=item3f67a925ba:g:SUoAAOSwv0tVJaVx&vxp=mtr
    1.87/ 1.53
    I thought over sized meant oversided stems..............=cock
    do I get these just in case my heads DID have chevy valves in at one time?

    oh, do I then have to run chevy keepers/collets and caps and springs
    are the chevy springs the same diameter as ford
    reading up, chevy valves are 0.10'' shorter ?- do I then have to fit lash caps to them?

    I appreciate your help
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  19. Beanscoot
    Joined: May 14, 2008
    Posts: 3,053

    Beanscoot
    Member

    Way back when, people used to use Chevy valves in Fords because they were cheaper, but it seems hardly worth it considering the extra hassle, and if machine work is involved, I would imagine it will be more expensive after all.

    If an auto starter motor is used on the manual transmission, the pinion might not fully disengage from the ring gear, so the drive will be spun up by the flywheel as the engine runs, quickly destroying it and making horrible noises.

    My first Ford had the wrong starter, but I didn't know about the difference. It didn't get hung up on the flywheel, but every time the starter was used the drive collided with the face of the flywheel. After a short while the drive case that holds the overrunning clutch wore through, releasing all the pieces resulting in bad sounds and a hole in the bellhousing.
     
  20. A Boner
    Joined: Dec 25, 2004
    Posts: 7,419

    A Boner
    Member

    As a Chevy engine fan, I just had to click on this with the interchange reputation Fords have......no cigar was my guess.
     
  21. JeffB2
    Joined: Dec 18, 2006
    Posts: 9,484

    JeffB2
    Member
    from Phoenix,AZ

     
  22. JeffB2
    Joined: Dec 18, 2006
    Posts: 9,484

    JeffB2
    Member
    from Phoenix,AZ

    Stem size is the same as Fords on these valves,go with the first set. As far as valve springs,keepers and retainers go match them to the camshaft, Summit makes it easy the parts column to the right: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-10350101lk/suggestedparts/?prefilter=1 You should probably limit valve lift to no more than this cams specs since you do not have adjustable rockers with those stock heads.
     
  23. kracker36
    Joined: Jan 21, 2012
    Posts: 761

    kracker36
    Member

    Some of these replys are making my head sore. Since you need a pre 75 block and heads, just use the Mexican block. Nothing wrong with a correctly installed 2 piece rear main seal. Use a 1m or 2m casting crank ( 289 or 302 ). Pistons are the same as the 289 uses a 5.155 rod and the 302 uses a 5.090. The early cranks have an oil slinger and the later 1 piece main seal cranks do not. Pm me and Ill be glad to help.
     
  24. kracker36
    Joined: Jan 21, 2012
    Posts: 761

    kracker36
    Member

    Also... there is never a case that using a reduced base circle cam is recommended. Using link bar type lifters in the early blocks eliminates this problem. They cost more but it's 100% worth it. Likely you will use a 351w firing order too
     
  25. Actually the change over from 28 to 50 )z imbalance was in 1980 and that is the year that most commonly gets people in trouble not knowing exactly what they have. Later 5.0 engines did not all have forged pistons, just the 1986 which was also the first year for port fuel injection.
     
  26. savannahDan
    Joined: Nov 26, 2008
    Posts: 149

    savannahDan
    Member

    the HO 5.0's had forged pistons from 85-92. Not all 5.0's, just the HO.
     
  27. Kerrynzl
    Joined: Jun 20, 2010
    Posts: 2,905

    Kerrynzl
    Member

    I was going to recommend this ^^^^ [you beat me to it] Use Retro Hydraulic Roller Lifters. and matching pushrods.
    Keep the 5.0 distributor gear to match the Roller Cam.

    If you're wanting for a 5.0 H.O with forged pistons , look for one with a grey oilpan [black oilpans are normally on engines with factory Hypereutectic pistons]
     
  28. 28TudorAZ
    Joined: Dec 29, 2016
    Posts: 114

    28TudorAZ

    You can make it work but it will cost a lot more money. I had a 1966 289 in my car that just went a few months ago. My engine builder was going to put a newer 5.0 crank in it since he had a few laying around but then I figured out it was cheaper to buy a junk yard 2001 explorer motor with the better heads put a cam and new springs and rebuild it which is what I did to get into the 320hp range.
     
  29. The late 50oz 302/5.0 reciprocating assembly will bolt-in into the early blocks; I did one into a '64 5-bolt block with no issues. Use the late matching flywheel and damper and you'll be good to go. There are a few things to note; one, the late crank lacks the 'oil slinger' flange of the early crank, but I experienced zero leakage as long as the two-piece seal is installed right. Two, the later crank is quite a bit lighter than the early one so 'rev-ability' is superior to the early 302. But you should run the late firing order as that helps with crank harmonics.
     
    Beanscoot likes this.

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