So after installing the new pinion bearing sleeve and bearings, I've followed the usual instructions on setting up my rearend. After splitting the gasket thickness between the two bells and torquing the bolts, the ring and pinion are so close they bind up. When I start moving gaskets from passenger side to driver side to loosen it up I end up with .039 on driver side and .003 on passenger and there's about .001-.002 in the backlash. This can't be right. Is the pinion driven in too far into the banjo? Any help is appreciated Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Have you tried a gear pattern? One way to get more clearance for backlash is to put a spacer shim under a side bearing race on the passenger side. This would move the bell out and give room for more adjustment.Snyders sell these shims and probably others. Also Mc Master Carr. John
I have some loose parts out in the shop to look at. To me it looks like you have more space than I'm used to seeing right where you have your 6" ruler. Your positive the bearing is fully seated? Is that a new gear set? The Wizzard
I don't see any solution other than getting the pinion further out. Have you set the nuts on the pinion? If there was a shim behind the double cup bearing, that would move the pinion out. My new gears had a similar problem with a lot of shim thickness on the drivers side and very litle on the pass. Not as bad as your problem. Maybe another case would be better? Have the pinion machined for more depth?
When I rebuilt my banjo I found Tom Endy's articles indispensable, maybe some clues in there. http://www.santaanitaas.org/technical-reference/tom-endys-tech-articles/ When I rebuilt mine I had to machine the bearing stops on the carrier or I would have had to use .060 worth of gaskets. My guess is the new reproduction bearings and races are not up to spec and have a wider +/- margin or error.
Old factory gear with inner bearing still on measures from bottom of bearing race to top of gear at .110. Maybe you can slip a feeler gauge in and see what you have. The Wizzard
Thanks for the reply's fellas. @ydopen Not sure what you mean by "gear pattern"? If you mean marking the pinion to check depth as it rotates then no, I have not done that. With gaskets split between the two bells the pinion wont even turn. I could try it with gaskets set the way they are now but theres barely any backlash so I think a different solution is in order regardless. I can look into the race spacer. @Pist-n-Broke I believe the double bearing race is seated, its flush with the entrance on the banjo side opening. The carrier bearings are seated and I set the rotating pressure with the pinion out so my gasket thickness is correct. This gearset is what came out of it. Also, just note, this rearend was pulled for inspection and gasket replacement due to it constantly leaking. Once apart I realized there were ZERO gaskets in the bells. ZERO. It didnt whine at all and drove fine, but this was not correct. It was an oversight on my part when I got the rearend long ago and slapped it in my car. So for this reason, I know that this setup should work fine. Im thinking the pinion race is too deep in the banjo.
Im thinking the pinion race is too deep in the banjo That is the only thing it can be. The only fix is to move the pinion out. Shim the double cup out or grind the back of the gear. Or try another center section.
X2 what Andy said about another center section to try if you can get your hands on one. I put 3.54 gears in my 40, but I swapped the entire center section into my bells/axles and didn't take apart the pinion.
Ok, good info. So if I understand correctly any gaskets at all should have loosened the gear mesh not tightened it. I'm going to go to my Book and see if there is a shim that should be in the case behind the Pinion bearing that might have been overlooked. The Wizzard
Again, thanks fellas! Does anyone know if there is a shim for the pinion race or if the Model A carrier shim is the same size for the later years? Im either shimming the pinion or the carrier bearing. https://www.brattons.com/diff-carrier-bearing-shim.html
Also, am I correct in believing the pinion race should be aligned with the banjo hole it enters and no deeper?
According to the Old Book (1940 motors manual) There is no shim for the Pinion. It just presses in the case and outter bearing race bottoms in the housing. Sounds like a thin shim would cure your issue. The Wizzard
Banjo rear ends are not easy to build. I suggest getting Vern Tardel's book "Ford 1932-1948 Banjo Differential - Service & Rebuilding Guide". $12.95 and worth every penny. https://www.verntardel.com/collecti...erential-service-and-rebuilding-guide-book-10
Did you replace carrier bearings? If so then thats where it is. The pinion should go tight to the pinion pilot bearing, that sets the depth. If the paper gasket shims are out of range then shim the backside of the carrier bearings.
Question. Is your bearing race below flush surface of center section where Torque tube bolts up? Torque tube is what holds it in the housing.
@oj Yes, carrier bearings were replaced. I'm thinking shimming the bearing is what I will have to do. @Pist-n-Broke I don't think so. I'm going to check tonight. Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
You can't do anything until you put some gear tooth marking compound on a section of the teeth and rotate the pinion with a load on the gear member, to see where the pattern is. Shimming the pinion is done to adjust the pinion to achieve the proper gear tooth contact. Shimming the sides is done to achieve the correct backlash AND the proper pre-load on the gear. To check the gear tooth contact, you also must have the correct backlash. Everything is dependent on the proper gear tooth contact pattern. Lots of work on those old banjo rear axles.
Last one I did wound up shimming bearing in bell .010 and had no gasket on that side and .039 on the other. Pattern on gear was so-so. This was a bunch of stuff we threw together. 46 housing and 39 bells with all new bearings.
Update: last night unused a feeler gauge and found the inner bearing NOT seated properly onto the pinion shaft. I pulled the double nut and washer and used a plate I fabbed on a CNC plasma to bolt up to the banjo to hold the sleeve in place. Next, I used a porta power to push the shaft onto the bearing in the proper position. This slid right into place with a little pressure. Torqued the bells back on and now I have the needed backlash at the pinion/ring. Does anyone know the rotating torque of pinion or axle? Sent from my iPhone using H.A.M.B.
This was the setup I used to press the bearing into place on pinion. Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
I have that written down somewhere, just can't put my hands on it. The book I have just talks aabout light drag. As I remember I believe it was 15 inch pound. I know I used my torque wrench on the axle nut to get there. I did that with brake drums on and shoes backed clear off. I may have gotten the number form Van Pelt off the phone. I'll keep looking for my notes. I know back lash is .003-.005 with a dial indicator but your past that part now. The Wizzard
Pinion rotating torque is 12-15 inch pounds...I set mine on the bench before the bells and axle assembly were bolted up. Also be careful when tightening the second jam nut as this changes the rotational torque slightly...took me a couple tries to get it on the money.
Axle rotation drag with one wheel held solid and wrench on other Axle nut is 10-15 inch pounds of drag. Hope this is what your looking for. The Wizzard
Lots of good info in this thread. I just pulled my A banjo apart today to clean and check. Apparently no shims (they're thin metal shims, aren't they?) on the side bells but there were gaskets. I may run into some issues there, but we'll see after everything is cleaned up and the setup begins. I read the excellent write up by Tom Endy...what a great, detailed how-to! A question I have, and searching led me here, is just where do you check backlash? Everything's inside when it's assembled, so where and against what do you set up a dial indicator to check backlash? It's been a long time since I set up a rearend, but I recall the dial indicator would be set against a tooth on the ring gear and checked by rocking the ring/carrier with the pinion held firm. But, that was on a "drop out" 3rd member. I just re-read the Endy write up and almost wondered as casual as he talked about backlash if it's more done by feel than any particular measurement. He never referred to where or how backlash was measured but referred to up to .020" is considered OK by some. It sounds like .010" is more desirable. So, as usual, I'm probably missing something really obvious but if it's right in front of me it's eluding me. Lynn
Hi Lynn, The gaskets are the shims and they come on different thicknesses. Check out my banjo rebuild thread in my signature below. I should have some good pictures that answer your questions.The whole process can be rewarding and maddening at the same time. Take your time and if you get frustrated walk away for a bit. I did a couple times. Good luck and take it slow and you will be ok Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
TBone69....Thanks for the reply. The photo on Pg. 2 answered my question of where to check backlash. I see that you put it against a flat of one of the pinion locking nuts. Thanks. Also, thanks for clearing up that gaskets are also shims. I thought maybe a shim was a gasket actually made of thin metal for a little more precision without having the compressibility of an actual gasket. I was aware that the gaskets are available in different thickness. From Mike's A-Ford-Able A parts I seem to recall they're available in .006" and .010" thickness. I'll have to include some extras of each when I place an order. I always say, "Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it"....but that's from back in the days that I still drank.....a lot. Lynn
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