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History As it was VS over restored?

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by dumprat, Jul 22, 2017.

  1. dumprat
    Joined: Dec 27, 2006
    Posts: 3,479

    dumprat
    Member
    from b.c.

    So with Peable beach coming up and having seen pics of some of cars displayed there and the condition of them as opposed to the way they appear in original photographs I wonder to myself "why do we insist on restoring a car better than it was originally?"

    Some of these cars were racers, never smooth with flawless paint. None were an investment. They were supposed to be cheap, fast and fun.

    So with that said how many of you are ok with running an old hot rod part with a few bumps and bruises? A hammer dropped axle rather than some super smooth one. Or something else that was actually as it was in the day rather than the "magazine ad" type of stuff.
    Just curious.
     
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  2. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,942

    squirrel
    Member

    I was thinking about whether I should do paint and body work on my old pickup, it's gotten a bit shabby looking since it got painted in 1981. I decided to leave it alone.

    Immaculate finish on old race cars kind of bugs me, too. I like a car to have character. Seems that lots of guys work real hard to remove it all.
     
  3. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 17,097

    Tim
    Member
    from KCMO

    So far my hotrod in progress is all stick welded together so I'd say I fall into the camp of how it actually was.
     
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  4. 6inarow
    Joined: Jan 24, 2007
    Posts: 2,360

    6inarow
    Member

    I also dont mind a couple battle scars from road trips either.
     

  5. Budget36
    Joined: Nov 29, 2014
    Posts: 13,174

    Budget36
    Member

    Actually, I'm impressed with race cars with super nice paint jobs on them...can't speak about the PB crowd, not my thing.
     
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  6. plan9
    Joined: Jun 3, 2003
    Posts: 4,078

    plan9
    Member

    Its only original once.
     
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  7. JB_roadrage
    Joined: Feb 25, 2011
    Posts: 379

    JB_roadrage
    Member

    It's like you were looking at a picture of my car as you were typing that...
     
  8. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 33,861

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Personally I'd rather see an old rod or custom that some one has restored to it's original glory but eliminated some of the scabs and suspect area while maintaining The overall integrity of the original build. Meaning keep the things that make it the car it is such as that hammer dropped axle with it's distinctive marks but clean up and finish off the torched out clearance for the exhaust in the frame and the torched, and hacked rear quarters where the notch was made in the body so it could clear the rear axle when it was channeled. Outwardly though the car should have the same pieces that the original build had meaning steering wheel, head lights, tail lights , wheel and hubcap choice and those other details that say it was the same car you saw in one of the rod mags from when it first came out .
    Back when My Blue Heaven was being restored about 20 years ago I got to visit with the gent who owned it at the Unfinished Nationals for about three years running. He showed me what he had done with metal to fix the chicken wire and bondo customizing that had been done in the original build. Now was he overdoing it on the restoration because he did it right when serious shortcuts had been made the first time? Having been around it after it was finished and watching the reactions of other older car guys who remembered it from back when he nailed it as far as appearance in and out went.

    I can appreciate and older rod or custom that is in great unrestored shape with it's worn a but thin paint and interior that shows the miles but isn't ragged. We all see those cars that were built back when that have not been changed since then that come out once or twice a year for a specific event and then go back in their spot in the garage and stay there until that event rolls around the next year. They don't get driven much but are obviously well kept and cared for.

    What tends to burn my biscuits is the guys who drag the rotting carcass of an old rod or custom that is rusted though in several spots, has only enough of it's paint left to let one know that it had been painted that color and only has the bare seat springs with the remnants of a bit of padding left along with a grease and rust covered engine who says he won't do anything to it because it will loose it's originality. The damned thing lost it's originality years ago when it sat out behind a shed until it was found in that condition.

    It is funny to me that guys on here are always knocking stick welding or assuming that it is always crude. Paul Charles in Texas who built the frame for my T bucket could run a bead with his stick welder that matches anyone's mig bead an a lot of tig beads. So could and still can my buddy that I grew up with who lives a mile from me. He has more and different welders in his shop than some welding supply houses keep on stock though. The man can stick weld a piece of ag equipment back better than new and minutes later tig together a stainless steel filter screen with screen fine enough to be the last step in filtering wine. It's the skill of the guy doing the welding just as much as the machine he is using.
     
  9. Don't they kinda have to take it to that level for those Concours shows ? Pebble Beach, Amelia, AMBR, etc ? Does put money on peoples' tables who do the work. I would rather go to the Peterson or Indianapolis.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
  10. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,942

    squirrel
    Member

    Max Gearhead, slv63 and clunker like this.
  11. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,942

    squirrel
    Member

    heh...that's funny, most Edsel owners feel the same way about their cars.
     
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  12. For the casual observer the Muntz Jet has the same appeal of the Ford Edsel,not that there is anything wrong with ether car,it just takes the guy that admires the quirkiness of the make & model,they are not for everyone. HRP
     
  13. sloppy jalopies
    Joined: Jun 29, 2015
    Posts: 5,256

    sloppy jalopies
    Member

    make and keep it fun... I know car couples that must have one of them at the car at all times...
    like bringing a challenged child...
    I don't look under cars anymore but when I got into hot rods everyone dropped and checked out suspensions, brackets ETC. of every rod that rolled in...
    IMO... the coolest thing on my '33 was the pin stripes flaking off.
     
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  14. lostone
    Joined: Oct 13, 2013
    Posts: 2,820

    lostone
    Member
    from kansas

    I agree with the over restored is becoming the new norm. I don't care for it myself. The concourse shows should not be touted as the most correctly restored cars because they are above factory new.

    I have seen quite a few low mileage muscle cars, vettes, etc and still to this day have never seen one with perfect door, hood, etc gaps. Nor have I seen one with mile deep polished paint.

    When we get old rods in the shop to work on my favorites are the ones with rock chips! ;) if it isn't driven to have fun it isn't worth owning !
     
  15. Nothing I own is a show boat and although I built Brenda's wagon to the best of my ability it was too far gone to leave it wearing it's original paint.

    My Tudor on the other hand is ideal for me,I drive the wheels off and park it in the Wallmart parking lot,my car is a driver and I have no desire to paint & polish.HRP

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
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  16. Tim
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 17,097

    Tim
    Member
    from KCMO

    Over restoring a period built car is editing history. What's the point of over restoring it
    To nicer than it was if it's deleting the very prof of what was actually done and what it looked like?

    Someone's going to see that car and think guys were tig welding and metal finishing everything I the 40's .

    The restored cars are history books. How much are you comfortable re writing?
     
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  17. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 6,916

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I think it's a different thing with race cars. My old dirt modified has a long and glorious history in southern Minnesota and Iowa. I tried to put it back to as close to it was in it's championship days, including changing the color back to the original and re-lettering it as close to original as possible. I am amazed at the number of people who ask me why I didn't straighten out the dents and re-do the original crude work done on cutting down the body. To tell the truth, it never crossed my mind.
     

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  18. As all seasoned car/car show enthusiasts, we can with a glance spot the beautifully restored high end cars and have a very good idea of what a closer inspection would reveal.
    Now on the other, old Hot Rods/Kustoms in as built condition, always (at least for me) will always warrant a closer inspection.
     
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  19. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 30,629

    The37Kid
    Member

    To answer the OP question it depends on the car, most Pebble Beach cars were Top Shelf when new and restored today. I was there in 2016 for the first time and it was unlike any car event I'd been to before, I had a GREAT time. I've worked at three restoration shops over the years and it was amazing to see the quality of the restorations at Pebble Beach. Car people ALLOWED shops and their employees to do their finest work and paid them for it. No bullshit, good enough, nobody will see it, they got to turn out the FINEST cars they could, and I bet every one felt good about it. It took years to restore most of those cars, if you don't get it, I don't have the time to explain it. Look forward to the next time I can see what others have restored. Bob
     
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  20. Ed,I am a lifetime subscriber to the Rodders Journal and can appreciate their top notch journalism but that doesn't mean every thing they print I have to believe it to be gospel,am I not entitled to my opinion? HRP

    BTW,send me the issue number and I will go back and read the article and get back to you,who knows I might end up agreeing with you.HRP

    I am more a hot rod guy but I like customs and I believe you are more a custom guy,does that make me or you wrong? No,we just don't see eye to eye.
     
  21. well crap
    I like em all
    the over restored, perfect, mile deep paint and the dust still on it as found beater

    I will study and learn from both
     
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  22. oh crap
    is this facebook with cars?
     
  23. Car-of-Tomorrow.jpg the fixed head model
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
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  24. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 30,629

    The37Kid
    Member

    I totally agree with you Ed, and like the Muntz Jet, and all things Frank Kurtis built. The Tucker is the lump I could never understand people having some type of affection for. Bob
     
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  25. Hemi Joel
    Joined: May 4, 2007
    Posts: 1,528

    Hemi Joel
    Member
    from Minnesota

    I love the cars at Pebble Beach, it is one of the most amazing static displays I have ever seen. If they all looked like they did when they were 6 months old, or if they were unrestored, it would lose some of the magic.

    That is not to say that I don't love patina, survivors, day 2 cars, weekend warriors, and daily drivers. But the ultra-rare high end cars with over the top restorations at pebble... there is nothing that compares. And pictures and videos do not do it justice. You have to be there to appreciate the extreme level of craftsmanship. I couldn't do it.
     
  26. mamllc
    Joined: Aug 26, 2008
    Posts: 148

    mamllc
    Member

    I have built concours cars, high end street rods, and patched a few up good enough for the owner to drive in the local July 4th parade. For me the answer is, whatever the owner wants. I do get a little irritated though at people who spend (or pay someone to spend) thousands of hours nitpicking details and claim the end product to be "original", while getting downright hostile towards anyone who wants to alter an old car.
     
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  27. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 10,245

    theHIGHLANDER
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    This is a scab worth picking. For the 1st part of my 40-some years at this shit I took a lot of heat for the fit and finish on the big Packards. That tired ol "...were NEVER that nice..." bullshit. So I ask, if you paid the price equal to about 5 or more Deluxe Ford products for just 1 car would accept a spray-it-forget-it finish? Now or back then? I have pictures at my shop of cars that you can see a clear reflected image of the photographer and his tripod in the side of the car, that's not black, that's outdoors. How about this ol tank, a Model 336 (courtesy of google/old motor)
    [​IMG]

    Now what you don't see is cut and polished frame rails. Might as well sodomize your client if you're wanting to spend their money with reckless abandon like that. Packard, Duesenberg, Pierce Arrow, they built finely crafted machines that reflect (no pun intended) the quality in the finish, trim fabrics and more, but they were still cars vs works of art. Talking about today's hot rods? Well I've seen total shit wagons that have been dragged from barns both in these pages and others, and some that were live examples. All I can say is that there were hacks back then too. Clearly not all of them, clearly not a "standard" as such, and I never thought some cobbled booger-weld pile of shit isn't what we should be looking at as the way it was and surely not telling those generations behind us that it is either. In my youth I helped Dad built quality stuff for us,not junk, not slapped together to hurry up and go for a ride. Today's materials are superior, equipment more affordable, and a measurable number of craftsmen have decided to create cars in the spirit of the past. I think of the best of Barris, Watson, Winfield and more. I don't think of Sammy Shitbox builders who never had a clue past a chunk of angle iron and rerod. Over done? I thnk "just right" when I see care, fit, finish and more. FWIW, Packard sprayed every car black and it was inspected for fit and finish by eye before the final color was applied. They kept with that until at least 47 (the newest salesman's handbook that I have). Quality is forever IMO.
     
  28. Chaz
    Joined: Feb 24, 2004
    Posts: 5,016

    Chaz
    Member Emeritus

    There's a place for everything.
     
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  29. Bandit Billy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2014
    Posts: 12,287

    Bandit Billy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    While the cars are OT and out of respect for our community, not pictured, over-restored is the benchmark these days at Barrett Jackson and they, for better or worse, set the beat we dance to.

    I sold a 69 Camaro at BJ a couple of years ago for $122k. That amount of dough requires meticulous assembly. A recent 77 Bandit I sold brought 50k private party, nut and bolt perfect. When that 77 TA was assembled I read that every worker on the line had 45 seconds to do their task. To say the least it was a mess; mismatched hardware, sloppy paint work, tons of seam sealer and no nod to quality control.

    If your end goal is high end re-sale or award winning show car you have to "white glove" the build. If your intent is a killer driver like HRP's cruiser above it is unnecessary and out of place (beside a waste of time and money).

    The Friday Art Show is a great example. Some of my favorite works are sketches and work in progress. You can ruin a painting or drawing by "overworking" the piece in my opinion.

    All have a place, all have an audience and in my opinion all have a place in our community.
     
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  30. Moriarity
    Joined: Apr 11, 2001
    Posts: 30,778

    Moriarity
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    I met Darryl Roth for the first time in Detroit at the autorama back in 06. I had owned and restored several of Big daddys cars and Ed Roth was the featured builder of the event. There were 17 Roth and tribute vehicles there. When Darryl shook my hand he said "thanks for making my dad look so good". Did I over restore the cars? I didn't think so, I just did the best job I knew how.....
     
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