Technical Please help: '85 302 5.0 in a '57 ford running hotter than a flathead...

Don't know if it's "literally" running that hot, just seemed like a good title. So I've got a '57 ford Fairlane 500 kustom with an aluminum radiator. I tried using a manual, turned-by-the-engine fan, but the motors temp got up to about 200 degrees. That seemed too hot so I turned it off. My buddy talked me into running electric fans (instead of figuring out what the actual cooling problem is I guess), and my danged electric fans crapped-out on me 15 miles from home today (I hate electrical stuff). Waited "a bit" and made it home w/o an incident (on an off-topic note, let's give thanks to all the friends and ladies out there that keep us from losing our shit when it fails, eh? Little lady really helped me out today, and I don't even think she knows).

So, what gives? Anyone have any idea's? The radiators NEW but I'm wondering if there could be a clog or obstruction in the engine? Maybe just a general flush should be done? Also, have already replaced the thermostat AND I'm running hoodless. A 302 in a '57 ford isn't anything new, but of course mine would be difficult.

Thanks guys,

Justin

 

First and foremost, do the research as there are a number of threads on this subject. Next, start with the basics: Make sure you have the proper size radiator for your engine. Make sure the suction side radiator hose has the spring in it to keep it from collapsing. Make sure the water pump is turning the right direction, if you're retrofitting a serpentine belt motor for V-belt pulleys you'll also need to swap out the water pump. If you run a mechanical fan make sure it turns the proper direction. Make sure you run a fan shroud. Before installing a used engine always, always, always replace the freeze plugs and while you're at it clean the gunk out of the cooling passages. Make sure you use the proper thermostat for the heat range needed. Use one of those laser heat guns to check the temp of the water going into the radiator verses the temp of the water going out, if there isn't a significant temperature drop, there's something wrong with the radiator or the coolant is moving too fast.

 

junkman8888 hit on the most likely issue. I do believe 85 ho motors were serpentine belts. That makes the water pump turn backwards from early V belt version. The reverse rotation pumps have a larger bolt circle bolt pattern for pulley/fan than early V belt pumps. What kind of belt drive are you using? Did you mix-n-match new and old parts?
The Wizzard

 

All the above, especially the pump rotation..
Are you using the original temp guage that the old engine was running??
If so, it could be just a matter of where the sender unit is situated.
Is it spewing water out of the radiator??
Is the rad cap at the highest point of the cooling system, has all the air been bled out of the system (probably not, but is there a heater fitted??)
Also what pressure radiator cap are you using? 13lb??
To me, 200 degrees don't sound too hot if you're running a 13 lb cap, that will raise boiling point to almost 250 degrees (here is the point it will blow water out of the radiator, and also the reason why we DON"T take off the radiator cap when the engine is at operating temp)

 

200 is not too hot.

 

inthweedz; The 85 5.0 motor has the temp sender in the same location as the earlier 302's. I have never had a bad reading from that spot. My 57 Vert has this same motor in it. I do however run the stock 57 Y Block sender and that's a must to get correct signal to dash gauge. Same goes for Oil gauge.
The Wizzard

 

Here's an easy way to check what water pump you actually have. First I have to say this. I HATE ELECTRIC FANS ON HOT ROD'S!! I have cured heating issues on many vehicles over the years that Electric Fans could not. I also own several 57 Fords right now. None are Stock and NONE have electric fans on them. There I feel better. Back to the info part. "If" you are just running bare bones and a V-Belt, and that's all you really need the bolt pattern on the Fan hub across center line for reverse pump is 2-1/8" center to center. On the early standard for V-Belt is 1-3/4". Know that these pumps are a direct bolt on to any timing chain cover. With a good healthy well tuned motor and as you said a new Rad a standard 4 blade fan will cool your 5.0 just fine and no shroud is necessary, at least it's been that way in my world.
Best of luck to ya.
The Wizzard

 

Okay, found the little solenoid that crapped out, replaced it (stupid electrics!) and now my fans work again. It looks like I do have the reverse water pump but it also looks like it's "laced" correctly-

X38 says 200 isn't too hot and my (aftermarket) temp gauge goes up to 240, but the normal operating temp is usually around 180, and it was only about 70-80 degrees yesterday so running the A/C in 100+ degree weather might not be possible at this time and I really need A/C here in California (in this day and age anyway)... I think the radiator cap has 15 pounds of pressure? Not sure but it seems like that's what the dude said when I got it from the parts store (my initial thinking was "wrong cap for aftermarket radiator",)...

Dad was asking me if I thought the desoto grill was restricting air-flow... doesn't seem like it would be to me... But maybe I haven't considered something. Does anyone see anything obvious or blatant I may have over-looked?

 

Also, my other buddy was telling me about "Water-Wetter". Anyone have any experience with that stuff?

 

Your belt, pump unit looks just fine. Your Desoto grill should not be a problem. What I see is 3 fans restricting air. Throw them away and mount a manual blade 1 inch from core and get on with life. Just study how much those 3 units are blocking air flow. Also you haven't shown enough of how the replacement Radieater is mounted. Air flow, Air flow, air flow. I believe your fans are just mixing the air not moving it.
The Wizzard

 

We are assuming your motor is basically healthy over all. That said I run Stock style Rads in all my 57's with no heating issues. 3

 

These things most often cause your issue. High compression, Lean burn, Timming way off. poor air flow. Just a few things for you to double check.

 

Check the thermostat, timing, ditch the electric fans. If the fan switch doesn't help, add a shroud.

 

Pist-n-Broke:
That danged front fan had me very suspicious, thank you for stating what I was already wondering about. The replacement radiator is the same size and mounts in the same spot.

BradinNC:
The thermostat was my first guess, hadn't considered my timing being off.

 

thermostat upside-down,timing issue,max bore if rebuilt

 

If you MUST stay with electric fans here is something I have done several times. Being air flow is what we are after, take a close look at your fan housings them self. Ask yourself if you think all those plastic braces holding the motor in place is doing you any good or even necessary. I think not. In fact I have cut out every other piece on several units increasing air flow and not had any negative effect on the unit itself. The end result has always been lower motor temps. What do you have to loose if you try it?
The Wizzard

 

If you reverse the wires on a DC motor it will run the opposite direction you mite check your fans. If you have one of those large drum fans try setting it in front is the radiator to see if that helps to see if you are chasing the right dog.

 

3 electric fans and an a/c condenser clogging up the works is what I see. Don't worry about the grille!

 

A lot going on there, 1 x pusher and 2 x puller fans all cramming for some space and then there is the condenser. I'd try loosing them as suggested, add a 7 blade mechanical AC fan and shroud once you've ticked off the list of other things above. Check that your thermostat actually opens by dropping it in boiling water.
I know a fellow who had a pusher and puller fans and his car always ran hot. If he'd problem solved he could have got it to run cooler but he wouldn't listen.

 

Hay, I just enlarged your photo of the back side of your Rad. I know this combination fairly well. What I see that I would take a Very close look at is your bottom Rad hose. You may have a Kink right off the Pump/Hose connection. The reason I say that is the bottom nipple on the Rad is way inboard compared to a Stock one. This forces the hose to center far more than the hose may be able to do without Folding over. Take a real good look at that. Give us a better over all shot of motor compartment please.
The Wizzard

 

Another thing, there is a reason on factory A.C. cars that the condenser is of same outside dementions as the Rad. Think about that and look at what you have going on there.
The Wizzard

 

With all the fans on there, that is too much going on. I agree with @Pist-n-Broke , take the electric stuff off and put a mechanical fan an inch away, and put a shroud on it. Also I didn't see anyone mention anything about running hoodless. I can almost guarantee, if you put the hood back on it will run cooler going down the road. Air will allways follow the path of least resistance. You will get air flowing through the radiator with the hood off, but at speed going down the road you will not get near the amount of air through the radiator as you would with the hood on. the grille opening acts like a scoop that will force the air through the radiator, take the hood off and you have now put a huge hole in the top of that scoop. the air will have more of a tendency to flow up and over the radiator rather than through it. I would be willing to bet if you put the hood on it would drop your coolant temp at least 10 degrees when running down the road.

 

Did you use a original manual 4 blade fan or a aluminum fan?

I run a 17" steel fan and it works great. HRP

 

1 pusher fan and 2 pullers = Restrictive.

 

If you don't have the factory fan from that motor that would be the best if you have the space. It should be a nylon fan on a fan clutch. I have one for the 302 in my f100 using the same motor from an 85 mustang GT.

 

I'm running hoodless because I'm also having vapor-lock issues.

My brother asked me if I thought my water-pump might have a broken fin-or two or a restriction in the cooling system, which sounds like another thing I should check.

Hopefully I still have the stock fan is my "tin rubbish" pile, but if not I have a flex fan sitting in the garage that may also work.

I'm having trouble figuring out how to remove the "pusher-fan". It's affixed with what look like plastic rivets directly to the radiator. Then not sure why to do with the wiring. Ground it? Tape the ends? I basically know nothing when it comes to wiring. Also not super happy with the mounts used to mount the evaporator, so gotta re-do that too.

Bottom radiator hose doesn't look kinked anywhere (which sucks cause I was really wishing that was it!)

 

Looks like a 58 instead of a 57......4 headlights.
Lose the pusher fan, the two pullers should be enough. A sharp knife will cut the plastic rivet things, they are like a round wire tie, barbed shaft, cut it just behind the head and pull them out the other side. I agree on putting the hood back on, too. If it's vapor locking, you might need to move the fuel line away from the exhaust heat, or make a shield for it.

 

I doubt you have any broken pump fins. I suppose as a last ditch deal you could remove it and take a look. The wires to the fans can just be left as is after unhooking them for now (if I read this right you added them or had it done). Make sure your on the right track before making anything permanent. Latter go back to where the added wire comes from and totally remove the complete wire. Sorry that bottom hose wasn't your Dirty Dog.
I know these heating issues are the Pitts! Getting to the bottom don't need to be a Huge deal. Go back to basic 101 mechanic work. Make sure your Motor is healthy. Know your E.G.T. That will tell you a lot about the Motor's health.
Now, you just brought up a new issue. Vapor Lock. "IF" you have vapor lock it also means lean burn just prior to shut down and that means temps go up. Unless you or someone moved the Factory fuel line getting enough heat in the line to cause that can't happen (Fuel line is outside the frame rails). I have however had 3 similar issues come to me. All 3 times it wasn't Vapor lock but Vacuum lock also assisted with a heat problem. The 57 Ford runs a non vented gas cap for obvious reasons. The tank Must be vented. The factory did a strange thing. They added a 1/4" nipple to the tank. Then a short piece of rubber hose to a steel line running through the inner rocker to the inside trunk space up and over to behind the trunk latch support through a rubber grommet to a plastic check valve. I have found the check valve damaged in the past. I have found the rubber connecting hose rotted off leaving the factory Nipple exposed and insect nest in the Nipple. These all caused loss of vent creating vacuum lock in the tank to lean run heat and stall. Time for Young Man Fynn to go do just a bit more home work, and while your at it throw away all 3 electric fan's, put your manual back on then let us know what you found.
Hope this helps.
The Wizzard

 

First of all, nice '57, I like the DeSoto grille, not an easy find.

And your Bro might be on to something. In the past, I had a water pump that had it's blades on the impeller eaten away by rust in the cooling system. The characteristics were it would run fine at idle, however, at higher RPMs, the engine would gradually run hotter. I also would stay away from flex fans, I've seen some come apart at higher RPMs. Since wiring is not your thing, I would ditch all those electric fans you have for a 7 blade, clutch fan with a shroud if you got the room.

 

Flex fans are not going to help you.Try a fan that looks just like the pic HRP put up.