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Folks Of Interest Question for old time body guys

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by JohnnyP., Apr 19, 2017.

  1. JohnnyP.
    Joined: Aug 3, 2005
    Posts: 1,301

    JohnnyP.
    Member

    So I am currently doing high dollar restoration now, and unfortunately that mainly includes off topic cars for this board, so the car in question is not the theme of this thread.

    So here it is, I know bondo has made a bad name for itself mainly for being a crappy product, but also for it being abused and misused. What other products, besides lead, were available pre 1975? This car has been owned by 8 people, and the current owners have had it since 1978 and the paint was not new. This car has been badly abused by filler but didn't show like I would have expected. There appears to be "duraglass" or the equivalent of all over this cars "repairs". So how badly was filler abused that have it such a bad name?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    And here is what was covered up.

    [​IMG]

    Back section spliced by overlapping, beaten down, and filled. Surprisingly enough everything stuck amazing and has not shown any signs that there was a repair here.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    chryslerfan55 likes this.
  2. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    My first exposure to plastic body fillers was in the late '50s when I was almost an apprentice. The journeymen of the time at first ridiculed it as they were 'lead men'. Due to cost and time issues, it became more accepted and the standard for routine bodywork. But either way, lead or plastics, the guys in that particular shop took pride in using the least amount possible.

    I don't agree that plastics based fillers "got a bad name for being crappy". I think that came from common and widespread (no pun intended) misuse. It was inexpensive, easy to use and the 'body bandits' took advantage of it's qualities.

    The fact is, lead was widely abused in it's day in much the same way. Unskilled and/or lazy body men didn't have pride in workmanship to metal work parts properly and filling with lead was relatively easier.

    Not much of human nature has changed with time.

    And, how 'crappy' can that mystery filler be if it was undetectable and lasted for such a long time?

    Ray
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
    rpm56, fauj, bill gruendeman and 6 others like this.
  3. The first plastic filler was heavy and fell out if you smeared it on too thick. It didn't bond as well as lead. But by about the mid '60s they were getting that worked out.

    basically the only fillers available were lead and mud. Fiberglass resin but it wasn't used as a filler.
     
  4. I had a '34 Ford sedan in the early 70's that I stripped to find "filler" in the right door. It was what we called (maybe actual name) black magic. It was black and tough as steel. When I uncovered it I blocked it flat and skimmed it back with what ever I was using back then. It stayed and the fresh layer stayed as well. My memory of it is that it was a good product. Seems you have a similar experience.
     

  5. They sold Black Magic and black Diamond. it seems to me that the black magic was the better of the two.
     
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  6. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 20,406

    alchemy
    Member

    My old boss at my part time body shop job, back in high school, called the black filler Black Jack. I remember grinding a bunch of it out of the fender of a '50 Desoto. That car was probably first wrecked and fixed in the 50's.
     
  7. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    Before bondo there were fillers that resembled furnace cement. Not spot putty but another filler that hardened without any hardener. It was not made of plastic, I don't know what it was. But it was only around for a few years before plastic body filler replaced it.
     
  8. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,941

    squirrel
    Member

    That's actually a pretty good repair job. I expect the car is probably worth a lot more now than it was when the repair was made, so you'd naturally want to repair it to today's high end standards.

    but most of my repairs end up like that, although I try to keep the filler less than 1/8" thick....
     
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  9. eberhama
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 673

    eberhama
    Member

    We have a '54 olds convert that was hit and had a quarter put on it, only to be hit again in the same spot and parked for good by '62. The repair over the well done gas welded splices was a hard black filler. Most of the bad name comes from people asking the filler to do things it was never intended to do, and being mad when it failed.
     
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  10. henry29
    Joined: Sep 5, 2007
    Posts: 2,872

    henry29
    Member

    Most old cars were just 10-15 year old rusted $50 cars to get to work, body filler was used to fill in rust holes covered with duct tape and chicken wire.
    People get upset all the time about how bad the PO's fucked up these old cars, but in my opinion they kept them on the road, kept them out of junkyards, and kept them from getting crushed.
     

  11. That is true, it's funny but nearly all of the old cars we love, were pretty much worthless at some point in their life. I've never thought about it the way you stated it. People did what they could to be able to get to work. Not every car was treated like the way we treat our cars today. They were just old used cars.

    Sometimes when I see a car absolutely junked out in the woods, in a field or even sitting in a junk yard...I think "at one time someone drove that car off the lot brand new. It was their pride and joy."
     
  12. LOL I got a friend that is into big block Chevelles. he finally found on in excellent shape. When it arrived and was unloaded he was going around it and discovered that one entire quarter was made from mud laid up over card board that was duct taped to the inside of the trunk. That was about 15 years ago and he is still made about it.
     
  13. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,941

    squirrel
    Member

    I recently bought a 70s luxury car...looked really nice in the pictures, first thing I noticed when I went to buy it, was the little chip in the paint at the corner of the trunk opening exposing pink filler, and the fine cracks at the rear of the quarter. Sure enough, the quarter had been replaced, and the filler was showing a little bit. But I bought it anyways, and it drives just fine....and looks good enough...
     
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  14. JohnnyP.
    Joined: Aug 3, 2005
    Posts: 1,301

    JohnnyP.
    Member

    I'm glad people are responding. Yes the car that I am working on was bought for $2000 in 78. Well, it's worth a lot more than that now even as it sits. Like I stated, I got into high dollar restorations, which in return means, porsche. I just finished a black 56 speedster. But here are some more repairs on this thing. No black filler, it was blue. Sanded like duraglass, but now knowing they didn't have that, I'm wondering what it was. But yes, there were 2 taped up holes with filler on them, those didn't last.


    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  15. JohnnyP.
    Joined: Aug 3, 2005
    Posts: 1,301

    JohnnyP.
    Member

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    That last pic is a factory seam. Pretty bad ass in my eyes. And I was super shocked at the quality of the filler on this car. From what I understand, they were cheap and that's why they were race cars. Now, well, let's just say they aren't cheap anymore.


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    -Brent- likes this.
  16. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 11,625

    Atwater Mike
    Member

    I bought a '52 Porsche Cabriolet Pre-'A' in 1972, it had been a race car and had front valance, fenders, and hood like a bag of walnuts.
    Pick and filed it, primering as I went. (between hauling my Hobie long board back and forth from Seacliff Beach to my house, 1/4 mile each way, nose of board deep in passenger footwell, deck on a mean angle upward...)
    My Porsche got mostly 'ironed out', and there was old bondo getting removed with Vixen file to long sanding board.
    Moral: Porsche was no stranger to 'Long Boards'.
     
  17. Prior to 78, - I'm not sure but in the early 80s they had fiberglass fillers. Long strand stuff was "kitty hair" and I can't remember the other stuff but it was similar to USC duraglass with fine chopped fiberglass. I'd imagine it wasn't new at that time either. My dad knew about them in 1980 and hadn't done bodywork for at least 10 years.
     
  18. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 20,406

    alchemy
    Member

    USC Duraglass was the brand I first used in 1982. I can still picture the white label with the kinda flag like logo on it. Used it on the spots that were a bit thicker than 1/8".

    Tigerhair is what we used on my buddy's rusty Nova to fill the holes in the wheel wells. It came in an orange can, and was kinda brown colored, even after mixing in the hardener.
     
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  19. the slogan for plastic filler should be:..........making crappy cars look good, for over 60 years........
     
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  20. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 11,625

    Atwater Mike
    Member

    Speaking of 'early' non-catalized fillers...Anybody remember "Auto Body Solder"? Available in 1954, It was a 'metallic' looking (and feeling) substance in a small 6 oz can, spread with a 1" putty knife.
    Careful sanding finished off my oxy-acet welded doorhandle holes in my '36 Three window so nicely that I went ahead and chopped it! (I knew I could finish it with this stuff...):eek:
    Tended to get me in deeeep shit...
     
  21. For all the nostalgia over lead, people forget that it was badly abused too (not to mention bad for your health!). Many early customs never got past primer because the lead would fall off or crack, same issues that later got blamed on plastic. Even when done to OEM standards, how many of you have run into a factory-leaded seam that cracked and allowed water to get behind it and rust out the steel?
     
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  22. I have an old time body, born in 1953.
    Oh.......I used some crap filler in the early 70's, held on by the paint I think.
    Pretty much a plastic blob.
    On a fiberglass body no less! TRYING to "sculpt", and repair a crack. LOL
    I wasn't good at reading instruction, still aren't.
     
  23. I wonder if pc7 epoxy would be good for filler , for that area that needs sculpting. Especially on chop mis matches

    Some guys swear duraglass is the greatest thing and some swear it's not good enough for shit. Same with usc all metal.
     
  24. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    I have seen factory lead fill over spot welded seams, that would have rusted and bulged eventually except they were at the back of the roof, in the C pillar. This area doesn't get wet so they seldom got rusty.

    Chrysler products of the 60s and 70s were pretty lumpy in this area but it was bad application at the factory. One guy would paddle on lumps of lead, the next guy would hit it with a grinder, if it was smooth it was ready to paint. Next car show you go to look in this area and you will see what I mean. Sometimes they get smoothed down when the car is repainted if the body man is hip but lots of guys aren't aware of it. Other cars besides Chrysler products, but they are the worst especially Plymouths and Dodges.
     
  25. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    I have seem some pretty sub standard body work done in lead. Like a one owner 59 MGA that had the back fender repaired with lead up to 2 or 3 inches thick. It looked like they never tried to straighten the fender, just filled a big crease with lead.

    Or rust holes stuffed with steel wool and leaded over.

    The prize goes to a 38 Cadillac. Some time a long time ago it was in an accident that caved in the driver's door. The bodyman cut a big X from corner to corner with an acetylene torch and pulled the metal out then tack welded it back together in a few places. Finished the job by levelling out the door with lead. We couldn't find another door and it was holding together perfectly so we replaced the worn out hinges and put it back on. It took 3 men to lift it back into position. The work had obviously been done a long time ago when it was a late model used car.
     
  26. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,816

    BJR
    Member

    I worked on a lot of cars that had steel wool stuffed in rust holes leaded over by a previous body shop. If you want to see bad factory leaded seams, look on the underside of the fins of a 59 Chev. About 6 or 8 inches in front of the tail light.
     
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  27. gas & guns
    Joined: Feb 6, 2014
    Posts: 370

    gas & guns
    Member

    I remember Black Knight in the 70s. Hard shit. We called it good Good Night Bondo.
    Then came Aluma Lead. Good product, but hard to sand. You would rough it out with a 36 grit and then topcoat with a lightweight pink bondo.
    Aluma Lead and Dura Glass become popular here in Michigan for guys that were lapping panels. Supposedly waterproof you can slick the backside of your repair to keep the water out of the seam.
    I remember a local car dealer in the 70s who would tape rust holes with the HVAC foil tape and mud over it. The shit would fall out in 6 months.
    Like it has already been said, Bondo has kept many a car from the crusher.
     
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  28. gene-koning
    Joined: Oct 28, 2016
    Posts: 4,041

    gene-koning
    Member

    Years ago I had an old body guy tell me that you HAD to put "kitty hair" over any welded seam on a panel if you didn't want it to rust out. According to him, the "kitty hair" sealed the seam and made it waterproof. He would purposely ding down with a body hammer both sides of a weld seam to "make room" for the layer of kitty hair and filler.
    Me, being just a punk kid, would weld the seam, and fill it with filler and sand it smooth. I had to cover it with primer before he would show up, and tell him I did the kitty hair thing. I hated working with the kitty hair. I didn't have problems with rusted out weld seams. Gene
     
  29. southcross2631
    Joined: Jan 20, 2013
    Posts: 4,413

    southcross2631
    Member

    My first experience with body filler was black magic. We repaired a hole in a 6 volt battery with it when the battery bounced out of the battery box and the fan hit it. Fixed the hole ,put VX-6 in the battery and refilled it. It lasted a long time.
    Repaired many rust holes with black magic . Growing up in the U.P. of Michigan. Seeing as they salted the roads about 8 months out of the year.
     
  30. rdscotty
    Joined: Sep 24, 2008
    Posts: 253

    rdscotty
    Member
    from red deer

    I know for a fact that the fiberglass filler was available in 1979 when I was in my auto-body pre-employment class at the community college. It was virtually the same as the products available today.
     

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