I think that some guys confuse hypocritical with hypothetical. LOL Wrenching is the important part. Sometimes I wonder if I am going to still be doing that part of this game tomorrow but so far every tomorrow has needed me to lift a wrench so I guess I will. If LS motors had been available "back in the day" would rodders have been all over them too??[/QUOTE] I actually have a friend that is older than my buy about 10 years. He says that about digital gauges, if they had been available rodders would have been all over them. But he still doesn't run them. Hot rodding has always been about the using the best of the best, there was a time for example that a teapot carb was cutting edge. We as a group for what ever reason have decided to abandon the cutting edge concept for what we consider to be traditional hot rodding. Sometimes we bend history to suit our purpose, we are humans after all. There you have it the world according to the beaner.
As in anything else, some folks take it more seriously than others. At the end of the day, we all seem to get where we want to go.
Somebody could explain this: Be or get as scientific or simple as you want- So far with physics, there's nothing be gained with out trade offs some other place. And moving air certainly does take power and , "power is power" How is it that an 12volt DC electric motor running way less than 1 Hp and that can easily fit in your hand ( itty bitty puny thing) can move enough air when coupled to a Fan. Yet when a fan is bolted to a 350 hp engine it takes 40 hp to move the air? I've read the reports and seen the dyno results but it don't make any sense at all. This is a 40 HP dc motor
I'm guessing the same as why a 1/3hp electric orbital sander works and a 3 HP compressor can't keep up with a pneumatic orbital sander, yet we still use them. Magic.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I think hot rodders would have been all over ANYTHING that would improve performance in any way. Bar nothing. They would be tuning their cars with a laptop in a second. I think they still are. Just read through any recent "Hot Rod" magazine. Bores me to death. I find the 3 or 4 pages that interest me at all and put it in the circular file. Would any red blooded hot rodder in 1952 challenge his wife driving the family car and get his ass handed to him? I would say a lot of people today with A's or Deuces and flatheads would get beaten by any modern car, take your pick. But it really isn't what Hamb or HRD is all about, is it? People here talk about their "hot rod" being able to go 65 and keep up with modern traffic. My wife drives like the "The Road Warrior" in our 4 cyl 5 speed Vue. My finger marks are forever in the passenger dash and I feel ill whenever she's driving because she accelerates and lane changes like she's at Lemans, and if my eyeballs weren't popping out looking strait ahead anticipating a firery rear-end collision at any moment, I would probably see the speedometer pinned at 85 or 90 mph. She laughs at me and says I drive like a granny. I think this forum, as well as magazines like HDR, OSR and such that are purely traditional are essentially about fixing and using old machines, enjoying and celebrating the past, not necessarily being stuck in it, so why not an electric fan? We aren't Revolutionary War re-enactors after all, this is more like a hillbilly Ren Fair.
the dyno isn't moving...a car is moving...I don't believe that it takes 40 hp to spin a fan on a race car.
Man I don't either, and tests can be manipulated any way the issuer wants but there's a few tests that report a 40 hp difference from fan to no fan. I don't get it, I don't understand it, I don't have a dyno to prove it, so I basically ignore it. Not that me ignoring it is a good thing but I really can't even begin to ponder about it. 40 hp is huge ! A regular old ultra lite has about 15 hp. The kick ass ones have 40 hp. The big whole house fan 3300 CFm uses a 1/2 Hp. If the puny electric cooling fan motor chops and moves air sufficiently and efficiently along with all theses other examples but a 8 cylinder will use 40hp to do it. Ok
I appreciate each and every one of you for your views and keeping it civil,and informative. And Gregg,yes I remember reading about Henry's concern over the 32 Ford running hot and toward the end of production he opted for the 25 louver hood which helped. HRP
If a fan used 40hp, how did my '60 Falcon get to freeway speed? After that, plus generator load, drivetrain friction, rolling resistance, and wind resistance, etc., I should not have been able to get out of the driveway.
There's two reasons.... One, an engine-driven fan doesn't run at a constant speed. Design it so it moves enough cooling air at idle, and at higher speeds it's going to move more air whether you need it or not. Thermostatic fans and flex fans are attempts to reduce this, but they're only partially successful at best. Two, it's a matter of efficiency. Engine-driven fans require larger clearances between the fan and the shroud because of engine movement to avoid physical contact, and this 'leakage' reduces efficiency. Sort of like removing the piston rings from your engine; it may still run, but it'll be a lot less efficient. Both of these things are easily addressed with an electric fan. Constant speed is inherent in the design, so you simply need a fan that moves enough air at only the times you need it. Removing the fan from the engine allows much closer clearances, so efficiency goes up... This is a bit simplified, but that's the gist of it. And I'll agree with Squirrel that real-world hp losses with a mechanical fan at speed are no doubt lower than what you see on a dyno, but still won't get anywhere near the 1 hp that an electric fan uses.
I prefer a steel blade engine driven fan and thats what I normally use. Flex fans are junk. On some builds unfortunately clearance issues prevent using a steel fan. In those cases I've used Spal electric fans. Debating whats traditional some times is like separating fly shit from pepper. There are probably very few cars without some modern device be it disc brakes, solid state ignition, headers, A/C, instrumentation, basecoat/clearcoat, etc. etc. Gary
I put a good quality flex fan on my former rod. Put over a 100 K miles on it and never looked back. Sent from my Nexus 7 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
Well, 427 Cammers have been around since '66. Ford Rodders have been wishing for an affordable one since at least then. The Coyote motors come damn close, look how many are going into everything under the sun. Don't get me wrong, I believe that what was done in the pre-65 era should be preserved, if only to give us brats who became enamored with the hobby in the late'70s through the '80s something to build on. Today's high end hot rods coming from places like Kindigit have their place, but, if you've watched their show, they're a body shop. they never work on the engines, transmissions, or suspensions. Their philosophy is "buy it", rather than "make it" where drivetrains are concerned. Their artistry with bodies and interiors is amazing, and I love the showcars they and those like them produce. My philosophy is somewhere in the middle I guess. I like modern conveniences like EFI, A/C, cruise control, power steering, disc brakes, and a good sound system. I also love the rattly purr of solid lifters and the uncut swoopiness of the original cars from pre '65 which have not been tampered with. Getting back on topic, I believe the first american cars to have electric fans were the Dodge Omni/Plymouth Horizon. as the OP has stated. The Honda cars had them too, in the earlier '70s, as did the Renault LeCar. (but them's furriner's cars).
Didn't AC Cobras coming from Shelby's shop have little electric fans in front of the radiator? Shelbys were borderline production. He produced around a car a day from '66 through '68 or 9.
So my diesel pickup with a sealed fan shroud that moves with engine, and an electrically decoupled fan clutch is as efficient as an electric fan??
Interesting reading here in these 2 articles. First : A dyno multi test showing the HP cost of mechanical fans http://www.carnut.com/ramblin/dyno.html A small excerpt Next : Debunking a 17hp parasitic loss from mechanical fan. http://www.aaroncake.net/rx-7/efanmyth.htm A small excerpt
interesting test. Install a fan blade designed to be used with a fan clutch, without the clutch, and it takes 40 hp to spin it at 4500 rpm in stationary air.
Ha ha true! But then you would be saying mechanical fans are better. It would be difficult to put a mechanical fan on a sideways motor
Sidewinders don't count. Both fans have advantages and disadvantages. If you aren't into electric fans, simple solution, don't run one.
It's a conspiracy, I'm telling ya!!!! Doesn't some thermodynamics theory tell that it's always going to take X hp to move Y CFm of air no matter where the HP comes from? And if that's so, couldn't you extrapolate the CFM being moved if 40hp was being used? Testers can bullshit but bullshit never passes the test
there must be, my exhaust fan on my spray booth is only 1/2 horsepower it runs for hours. i also have two large air filter units in my shop with 3/4 horsepower motors that are hard to stand in front of when they are running.
since your first post, i keep thinking of how it could rob that much horsepower. even a little briggs and straton engine turns a fan [flywheel]........subtract 40 horsepower and the mower makes the grass taller.
I call bullshit on this whole thing, and not because of traditionalism. It doesn't matter how you drive a fan, off the engine's pulleys or with an electric motor it takes the SAME HP to move the same amount of air. And you have to generate that power with that engine, either with an alternator or a generator in order to drive that electric motor. And you're going to need just as much horsepower as you do with a mechanical fan if you move the same amount of air. That's simple logic. And if you're generating that power with alternator or generator, THERE AIN"T NO FREE LUNCH. It's going to take as much, if not more because of heat losses and friction from 2 devices, one to make the electric power, and the other to propel the fan, as it takes from the engine to propel a mechanical fan. The only possible advantage of the electric fan is if it has a thermostat to turn it off when the vehicle is moving enough to supply the air flow needed to cool the engine without a fan. And that brings complexity and reliability into the picture. But I sorta suspect that the heat and friction losses I have already mentioned, plus the added complexity and reliability problems don't equalize that in the long run. Me? I'll take a mechanical fan if I can find a way to fit it in.
Well, like EVERYBODY else on here, I build my own cars. Mechanical or electric? Easy, during the build, mount the rad, then mount the engine so the STOCK metal fan is in the center of the rad, puts the engine higher in the chassis, just like the good old days traditionalists strive for. Build the trans tunnel accordingly, get RELIABLY on the road. All my cars cool well, even on 100 degree days, I don't worry about heating problems.
Well said. I've had mechanical fans on all of my old Ford hot rods since the very first in 1965. I just set up the motor mounts as required for the fan to be effective. None of my cars have had cooling problems. Electric fans are for Street Rods, like billet wheels and digital gauges. I don't like seeing them or hearing them on Traditional or period correct hot rods. The only excuse for running one on a Traditional/Period car is having a blower drive in the way. Oh gee, I guess I've been giving up 40 valuable HP and maybe .0004 MPG, who cares - it's a street car.
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