Technical Base/clear or Single stage paint

Correction...I just realized the pic I posted is of the repair work I did after sideswiping the driver's side in March of this year...so the pic is actually my second painting of this car.

 

I was waiting for someone to say what you said. My Deuce is Victory red, single stage laid down in late '09. The secret to my excellent paint job might be the excellent painter, Frank Zuehl. He can paint anything but I suggested single stage because touch up will be easier. His painting prowess is such that very little "polishing" is needed. The '40 Ford truck he painted in '08 won early TRUCK OF THE YEAR at Good-Guys in Arlington. At GNRS '16, another '40 Ford truck he painted took its class. Both were single stage jobs.

 

There are established meetings all over the country for guys like you. LOL

 

Your next poll will be

O-Enamel
O-Lacquer

And I'll vote lacquer.

 

hello, im s55 and im a lacquerholic....
it all started for me with dulux....
then came the hard stuff, duco...

 

Question is really laquer, enamel or urethane.

Each have their own look.

Gloss and shine are really about reflection.

As someone stated when a sealer was applied it left orange peal in the sealer. The base left an even coverage as it really does not flow. The clear flows and to some extent self levels. If that is then color sanded and buffed it will never change the peal that the base was sprayed on due to the sealer. Most Bc/cc jobs are sprayed over 600-800 grit sanded finish so the base lays flat on the surface.

All 3 finishes should have a glossy look to them if sanded and buffed after final spraying.

The reflection is also in the prep of the panels which is where the "plastic" look comes from. Built up edges on highly finished cars where detail lines are not kept up with or kept sharp after high build primers are applied, leave a smoothed out finish. Detail lines take a lot of time to deal with properly. I can sand the flats on a door in less time than it takes to address the upper details. A well prepped flat panel that has been buffed will reflect light and give a mirror like appearance.

I personally like urethane for my Bc/Cc jobs and use a urethane single stage with a % of clear for the final 2 coats as I find it aids in wetsanding and buffing. Urethane is also more durable and touch ups on solids are just as easy as enamel or laquer. Touch ups on metallic finishes are always a pain.

If you want a less glossy finish don't buff it. There are also flattening agents you can add but make sure you can consistently reproduce the desired gloss level.

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^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sleds, as I look at paint jobs paint does NOT fill it only REFLECTS the crap in the first layer of primer. That last coat of sealer better be perfect or the paint will have flaws. Bob

 

The color reflects whatever is under it. 90% of a paint job is prep.

If you have a smooth surface 600 or better for metallic base coat the metalic will lay down flat / smoth on top of the sanded finish.

Sealers are designed to lay flatter than high build primers but still leave a peal. Therefore the metallic sits at different angles as it climbs the hills and valleys of the peal.

Peal in the clear can be wetsanded smooth. Peal in the base will show as a defect (for lack of a better word) like a deep scratch. No amount of wetsanding or buffing will eliminate defects under the clear.

On single stage solid paints those defects could be sanded and eliminated at the cost of thinning the color coat or could be filled with several touch ups prior to sanding and buffing.



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Single stage is fine and all.....but don't try a metallic SS unless you're pretty experienced with a paint gun...you'll want to slit your wrists.

 

We have a simple rule here at the shop. Metallics BC/CC, solid colors single stage. This applies to everything from drivers to show paint, the only exception on solids if your burying graphics edges such as flame jobs . I see no advantage of clear over a solid color, done properly both will shine. I personally hate clear, magnifies every little speck of dust or other flaws, breaks down in the sun. Only reason I clear metallics is so I'm not buffing on the metallic.

 

This has evolved from the original question the op asked, but I guess there's no harm since his question was clearly answered. So...
A clarification of my pervious post, then some questions. The statement I made about the acrylic sealer having orangepeel was actually the first time i painted the car, and the pics I posted was the second time I painted the car after an accident. Knowing the problem I had the first time, and my knowing about the availability of a product that I don't think was available when I painted the car the first time, I elected to try a different approach on the repaint. The repaint was needed because of an accident the car was in sideswiping the entire driver's side. Several factors entered into my decision to repaint the entire car except the roof. First I'm a novice painter, second was the paint is a metallic silver, third was I really have no clearcut stopping points because I rolled the back pan and eliminated all body seams. I really didn't feel I had the expertise to blend, so it was easier to do the whole car, and I actually had 6 or 8 small scratches, and dents scattered over the car that were repaired in the process.
Instead of using an acrylic sealer over the body worked areas and having the same issue as described, I used a high solids primer that can be mixed as a surface primer, a high build primer or a sealer primer. I had been told the more coats I applied of the metallic silver, the darker it would get, so my thinking now was.....all bodyworked areas that were down to bare metal were first sprayed with epoxy primer, then a sealer primer followed with the high build on those areas for blocking. The rest of the car was blocked (the old clearcoat) and shot with the surface coat mix. Using the one product mixed for different purposes gave me a consistent color base, and allowed me to block the car prior to shooting the base/cc. The car was originally stripped to bare metal 100%, so I wasn't concerned with having to reseal areas previously painted, and I wanted to keep overallbuildup to a minimum.
Was this second approach the way to go? I'd sure appreciate some input from the experts here. Next summer I need to strip/redo the roof due to a prep issue I have with the roof only. I had treated the roof with a metal etch/zinc phosphate and used seam sealer in the drip rails before I epoxy primered the car. The zinc coating was left on the sheetmetal prior to applying the seam sealer, but the rest of the roof was da'd before the epoxy primer. That zinc coating created a bonding issue with the seam sealer and I'm starting to get some lifting in those areas. Also, I have since learned I should have applied the epoxy primer prior to the seam sealer, not after.
Sorry for the long winded post.

 

I dont see any need to use your hi build primer as a sealer, if you are going to use it afterward on the same area as a hi build primer. I personally like to not use a wet on wet sealer, as it is one more layer to catch dust and bugs and such. IF I have a choice, I would rather put my finish coats, whether they are a bc/cc or single stage, on top of a sanded surface. That is just my opinion, and as I said before, it is one less layer that is catching dust and dirt. Back in the old days, we would use a lacquer sealer when edging, jambing, cutting parts in or whatever you want to call it, and sand that and paint over that. I know this is not the way we do things in a production type shop nowadays, but is sure cut down on the sanding and buffing.

 

I am also gonna toss this out there, and there are surely some who will disagree with it. Sanding and buffing single stage metallics is not as bad as some may think. My application may not be according to Hoyle, but it wors for me. First, never ever over-reduce the stuff. If you didnt get enough paint or whatever this is not going to work. Your color will be lighter and it just plains looks like crap. Put the coats on as wet as you can, and dont let them dry in between. You want the coats to meld together. And do put on three good coats, minmum

 

I am posting from my phone, so bear with me, it sucks. 3 good coats, minimum. If you are trying to set a cost containment record on your paint and materials, that may not suit some folks, but the results are well worth the cost, IMO. Now, you will not be able to remove sags and runs, so remeber, it is always easier to sand and buff dry spots (orange peel), than to deal with sags and runs. Now Im not advocating you can paint in the driveway and buff all the dirt out, but this works for me. You guys who are learning to paint, dont be afraid to do some test panels and experiment. One more thing on metallics, practice cross coating. You will always get zebra stripes if you dont.

 

I maybe wasn't clear on that, I used the primer mixed as a sealer first, immediatly followed by the high build mix. The sealer was under the high build, not over. That way, as you stated, I could long board the high build and have a smooth surface for the base coat. My reason was I was told if a sealer is sanded, it will loose it's sealing properties, and I definetly wanted sealer over the areas that had been bodyworked..

 

Right, you were clear on that, my response was not. What I mean is the primer/sealer combo when cured is the same, whether it is reduced for use as a sealer, or unreduced for use as a primer surfacer. Now a product that is strictly a sealer, you probably would not want to sand and paint over, unless it is a sandable sealer. In your case, Im betting you could have saved the sealer step, that you used under your primer. Im just getting used to using my phone to post with and it will move my cursor around when I try to review what I am posting. You were clear as a bell, my apologies for any confusion. Another thing I like to point out to our new bodymen at work. In the end, body and paint work is something that is learned, not taught. Some things can be taught, but you have to screw up sometimes to learn anything.

 

I like to get the mud work done, shoot a coat of epoxy down then go to high build filler primer. I feel much better about everything that way & The extra step makes for sound sleep. Then I shoot a sealer on the high build and then paint.

Ask 5 body men 3 questions and you'll get 15-20 different answers.

The biggest best help is to see how your work holds up after 3,5,20 years. Watching stuff go bad or lasting lets you know what your doing right and wrong.

 

Or so I found out the hard way...how it holds up thru an accident. I reached in and started the car when I was working on a starting problem, and the car started up...in gear. sideswiped a building door jamb on the driver's side from the headlight to the tailight before I could stop it. creases, dents, scrapes, door pancaked, etc. Two things I learned from that (aside from not starting a car by reaching in)..my headlight eyebrows and tailight housing that I had moulded in had no cracks even after the direct hit. When I showed the damaged car to my bodyworking friend, I was kinda surprised when he went first to the areas where the paint was scrapped off, poked around a bit and said "that's the way it is suppose to look. You did it right. Paint adhesion is good"

 

There is a virtual book of "how to paint" here in this thread and perhaps it should become a sticky. I took the OP poll question as asking what type of look we prefer from the car's paint, as each system does in fact give a different look.

Personally, I detest the Cc car finish look of the current crop of vehicles which, to me, has an unnatural phony shineness, like coating the car with saran-wrap. I want to use my fingernails to pick it off to see the natural paint surface underneath. And then after 10 or so years in your driveway it begins to nravel or unpeel on it's own and comes off the car in ugly splotches. Factory car paint on 70-80 year old cars can often be revived and look great. But any current Cadillac or MB paint is shot in a dozen years unless kept in a heated garage and that only extends it a short additional time. EPA be damned.

 

Paul,

Paint failure of clear in a bc/cc system can usually be attributed to the quality of the clear due to a lack of solids and poor UV protection. I have a customer who won a best paint in show about 5 yesrs ago with a car I painted around 2000.

Last set up of Spies Hecker I bought was $200 qt for color and around $500gal for clear and hardener. Last gallon of cheap clear I bought was around 100-120 for clear and hardener.

I painted my El camino about 10 years ago in Spies and then repainted some panels a few yeats later with a cheap clear. Cheap clear failed and the Spies still looks good. That car sits| outside 24- 7- 365 in new England weather.

There is a difference in products and in the paint world more $ is a better product.

I would trust the high end line of any major manufacturer to produce a long lasting product (PPG, DuPont, Glasurit, Spies Hecker) but I do not expect my Limco (owned by RM) clear to last as long as a Glasurit clear (also RM) job after spending 1/4 of the price.

I further trust generic clears even less. Some "high solids" clears pour like water. Higher end clears pour like a syrup. Many crash and dent type shops dont care about long-term results (more than 5 years) as those cars are traded in before the paint fails.

Not using generics puts me at a disadvantage with most of my overall jobs the material bill at my cost is cresting $3000 (epoxy, sand paper,filler primers, paint, misc supplies). Especially now with so many unscrupulous body shops not willing to explain the difference and penny pinching customers not wanting to listen to the reality about paint and bodywork (thats another thread).

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Going to throw this out there. Yes, of course metallics single stage can be cut and buffed, we did it all the time back before BC/CC came on the scene. According to what a paint manufacture rep told me years ago the problem come from metallic being just that, metal. Usually ground aluminum, today I know a lot of it is synthetics like mylar. Once you sand on a metallic surface you expose some of the "flakes" to the elements and they can tarnish, the paint will dull and fade premature. Made sense to me which is why I always clear over metallic if I'm going to buff it. Wasn't a big deal back when paint jobs weren't expected to last but a short time, now days with the cost of a good paint job we want them to last forever.

 

Sinister Sleds, I couldnt agree with you more. I have found the high end European products to be the best. When I had my own collision repair, I used Glasurit exclusivly, loved it. It is really sad how material costs have shot up over the years.

 

Yeah that sucks,
NSS It's a pet peeve of mine. I get cars in that don't have them but I never let it out until the NSS is working. It's my way of making the world a better place.

 

NSS and clutch interlocks are a darn good idea. I cant believe there are semi trucks out there without clutch interlocks, that is crazy.

 

metalman, that is a good point. I have a hood I painted in uncatalyzed acrylic enamel, that has been a yard art test panel since 2007. I think I will sand and buff half of it and see what happens.

 

When is was time to paint my truck I chose" Hugger Orange" in Single Stage, asked for the best it so happen there best did not shine as well as there 2nd tier by he same manufacturer and not disappointed with the end result it been 3 years, needs wet sanding and buffing still looks great should look even better

 

LOL...Yeah, but how do you fix stupid? Mine has the NSS. I was in a commercial hand car wash on a busy day...tried to McGyver rig it when it wouldn't start and was blocking their flow of cars thru their wash. After just replacing the starter and solenoid a few days prior, the next thing I was going to check was the NSS if the problem reoccured. Bypassing the switch, I found out it was working as it was suppose to, and it was actually a shifter cable problem I had. Guess what I spent my summer doing.
big $$$ damage to their building as well.
I learned a huge lesson that day, but thank God no one was injured. Sheet metal on cars and buildings can be fixed. I just turned 70, don't want to have to redo the car again. All that blocking 'bout killed me.

 

BTW, s55mercury66....my car spent a lot of it's life, as far as I've been able to find out, in S Wyoming. I know this because my Father in law had a title from there when he got it in the 90's. Also, when I was stripping the car I found a previously patched rust area in the rocker panels. Before they filled the rockers with bondo, the rockers were stuffed with newspapers from Casper, 1975!!

 

DO LIKE THE PAINTERS OF TODAY--BASE IT, YOU DONT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT RUNNING IT-- IT DRYS LIKE RIGHT NOW, IF ITS HAS DRY SPRAY, DONT WORRY ABOUT. CLEAR THE HELL OUT OF IT, SAG EVERY EDGE--RUNS ALL OVER, AND AGAIN DONT SWEAT IT--IF IT IS TOO DRY JUST MAKE SURE YOU HAVE PUT ENOUGH CLEAR ON IT---COLOR SAND THE RUNS OUT AND WHA-LA !!!. BACK IN OLD DAYS OF STRAIGHT ENAMEL YOU HAD TO BE A REAL PAINTER---NO SAGS, NO DRY SPRAY, EVEN METALIC DISPERSAL AND PERFECT FLOW OUT---THERE WAS NO SANDING AND POLISHING ENAMEL. IT TOOK REAL SKILL THEN.