Technical '57 Chevy 350/t400 eng./trans mounts, driveshaft yoke questions

The first part of this thread is here: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/aw-crap-rust.1014358/ I've decided to leave these in technical as I will be asking for advice/suggestions as well as showing solutions that I discover as I go along...
Hi Hambers,
So I was really excited to get a complete running van to use as a driveline for my '57 chevy 4 dr sedan. I was going to simply ask if there was a stock driveshaft that guys used in the common turbo 400 (short tail) and 10 bolt in a tri 5 set up.... a factory driveshaft I could hunt down in a junkyard. I'm guessing thousands of guys have used these very common parts over the years. Until....I noticed the van trans has no slip yoke because it had a 2 piece driveshaft so 2 questions: 1) is there a stock (even a different make?) driveshaft people commonly use in this swap? 1 a) I also have a stock rear axle does the stock drive shaft work with a turbo 400 -'57 rear? if not does it get shortened or lengthened? 2) can I even use this trans.? can it be converted to use a slip yoke? 2 a) if i'm screwed and can't use it which stock trans should I use 3 spd or powerglide? 3 spd seems funner but p/g seems easier to install
-thanks!
p.s. I have the two stock trans so i'm not going to look for another late model trans if the th400 is unusable

 

there are several flavors of TH400. Do you have one from a truck, with a bolted on rear yoke? If so, you can probably just unbolt the yoke, and get a normal slip yoke, and a one piece driveshaft.

I don't know of any driveshafts that you could find that are the right length...and you need to deal with the U joint sizes usually being different, there were at least 3 of them used on the TH400 yoke that I know of...1310, 1350, and Detroit (the kind that had the molded plastic rings holding the factory joint in the driveshaft, but replaced with one that has external clips that fit round the inner edge of the caps).

Last time I need a new shaft for mine, I got one made at a driveline shop, and bought a yoke. kind of expensive.

 

Thanks I hope it's that easy so far my research says that the out put shaft for the bolt on yoke is larger than the slip yoke output shaft :-( hopefully someone knows of one that will work

 

http://www.dennysdriveshaft.com/p69...sion_slip_yoke_1310_series_32_spline_wth.html
this doesn't say whether this is a custom machined part or something available off the shelf/junkyard ....if it is a one off it makes the driveshaft way more expensive because I'll have to order it and pay duty and also pay twice as much because of the canadian peso :-( THEN still pay to have a custom shaft made up
this seems to imply that you don't have to change the tailshaft and that an ordinary slip yoke will work after removing this o-ring....can anyone confirm this? too me it looks like the shaft is the same thickness after the splines so the yoke CANNOT slip on any farther

 

OK maybe my first question got lost in the shuffle...there have been literally thousands of '55-7's put together using the very common turbo 400 and 10 bolt rear axle since the rear is static the only possible difference could be the length of the tailshaft/housing so let me rephrase: w engine in stock position, SHORT tail th400 and 10 bolt what junk yard genius has discovered a factory driveshaft that works?....I refuse to believe this hasn't been done and that every guy gets a shaft custom made

 

used to be we'd wander through a yard full of 60s cars and find a driveshaft. Been a few decades since I've been able to do that. Maybe you have a better selection of old cars in junkyards up there? I don't know.

Look for something similar wheelbase, like a big block Chevelle, or something.

or maybe a short bed truck

 

Thanks good suggestions and point taken about the wrecking yards the local ones do now strip the old cars they do get in just because they're rare now as opposed to crushing right away... I guess that's another thing usually it has been so long since we did it we just can't quite remember how we did it or what we scrounged that part from lol..... the awesome thing about the HAMB is sometimes you catch the right guy on the right day with the right answer....

 

This is what I was able to dig up hope it helps someone else going through this process. Short story long is: just because there are factory short yokes available for the TH400 that fit on the splines using them can cause you to have the incorrect length of spline engagement and forward thrust/binding issues.....found this article:

There are a few different short th400 output shafts .The type that is used with a bolt on yoke(truck and van issue)has a larger diameter after the o ring seal groove on the shaft that is right behind the splines that the slip yoke engages into.If this area is not machined down the front face of the slip yoke that enters the transmission will stop up against it and remove all of the end clearance out of the transmission,as well as put the driveshaft in a bind .This can happen even if the drive shaft portion(excluding the yoke )is of the correct length.The remedy for this is to machine this area down so the yoke can enter the rear of the trans to the correct depth.Typically there will be close 2 and 3/4 to 3 inches of spline engagement where the male shaft enters the female yoke with the suspension at rest as when the vehicle is on the ground and no torque applied to the driveline. From this point of engagement the female yoke should be able to slide an additional 3/4 " to 1 " more deeper over the male shaft before it contacts the rear seal.This is because the distance from the center of the rear axle to rear seal of the transmission changes as the suspension goes thru its range of travel.If the center of the rear axle decides to move away from the rear seal the 2 and 3/4 to 3 " of spline engagement also assures the parts cannot be disconnected.Proper engagement depth also reduces the chances of a mechanical failure at male and female interface.I usually take the yoke and make sure it can go in far enough to contact the seal to be sure the male output shaft is ok. Our procedure is to do this and then measure from the center of the rear u joint to the face of the rear seal ,and then subtract 1 ".The distance from the center of the rear u joint to the face of the yoke that would contact the rear seal is now this length.
__________________
Cristoforos Kokkonis,GM automatic transmission specialist.

 

In your initial post, you're asking about drive shafts for the "common" TH 400, but you're not telling which length extension housing is on the TH 400 that you have.

 

Hi bobg1951, in the 3rd or 4th post I amended that it is the short housing - thanks

 

I answered this "question" you posted on this, or another forum, already. I mentioned the conversion yoke needed, which is what you've now found out. There is a yoke made that covers the bolt on style yoke transmission being used in a situation where a regular SLIP yoke is needed. Or, you can make, or have a stock one modified to work. Those slip yokes are't that much, but as you said, the taxes and duty ups the price you have to pay. I think you'll have to have a driveshaft made, probably by shortening your stock 55-57 shaft, and adding the TH400 style "trunnion" (not sure that's the right term) to the slip yoke end. Surprised falcongeorge did't jump in on this, I'm sure he could have pointed you in the right direction. Good luck with that Tr-Five Chevrolet, I see you also have a 2 door.
I am Butch/56sedandelivery.

 

Thanks Butch I think I have located a couple locally (provided the parts guy and I were on the same page) with 1350 series yokes which apparently is the same as the '57 driveshaft?? (please chime in if you know different) it's not cheap but maybe I won't have to ship it and can hopefully reuse the '57 yoke/trunion.... yes but the 2 dr has no glass and needs a lot of work so 4 dr. goes on the road first we're hoping to use it for our wedding in April

 

Heinously long trans dipstick tube is hitting the firewall and pushing the engine forward (stock mounts)....anyone have any suggestions for a car/ truck stick & tube that uses the same volume oil pan as the van trans?

 

Sometimes, the Lokar type of flexible trans tube works best in the Tri-Five cars. You may be able to find a shorter "car or pickup truck" tube that will work with some bending. The van tube is ridiculously long for a car application.
I am Butch/56sedandelivery.

 

I had one made for my Ford, I supplied the length and the trans yoke. $300 and 2 days later it was done, all Spicer and Neapco parts. Diameter is 3.5". All I had to do was paint it.

 

Ugh now an apparently simple installation has turned into a hot rod scratch build....so my HEI is too big and hits the firewall, my front mounts are hitting the balancer and my oil pan while sitting in a position roughly 1/2 ahead of stock is kissing the centrelink at full lock and of course my trans is hanging out in space....oddly I can't seem to find many tech articles about these cars just page after page of bolt on aftermarket stuff ads....so now it seems I have to move this engine ahead (dist.) and up (oil pan) which means I can't fab brackets for stock style mid mounts as I'd hoped . This will also shove the engine into my rad and change the transmission angle which of course affects my new fancy dancy expensive custom yoke/driveshaft that I will have to have made ......does any one know the distance from trans tunnel to output shaft mid section (stock)? so I know at least one reference point

*am working outside w no access to a welder so I need bolt on stuff

 

I also have or should I say had a set of headers.... now with engine moving all around I guess they are junk the truck/van manifolds fit the steering box profile which was exciting until I realized they run into the trans mount on one side and pitman on the other....I can't find any stock rams horns but I can get a later pair that turn at the ends instead going straight down.... has anyone used these? looks like they will also be super close to the box but i'm mostly wondering about the steering....

 

Well, not a turbo 400, but I used a 350 / th350, and stock driveshaft out of a 1977 chevy monte carlo... But, that was with front mounts, and adaptors for bell housing mounts.

 

Great thanks Abomb! do you know if it is a short, mid, or long tail t 350? ....did you use a points dist. with that mounting combo?
https://summitracing.custhelp.com/a...1/~/turbo-350-and-400-transmission-dimensions apparently a turbo 400 w a 9" tailhousing is the same length as a t350 w a 12" housing

 

It's hard to find a driveshaft anymore because most junk yards lift the cars with a big forklift and the shaft gets bent. My local driveline shop charges around $225 to make up a shaft with new parts and they balance it and paint it gloss black. If I call them by Noon I can usually pick it up the next morning. Money well spent.

 

Thanks good point about the junkyard shafts I was thinking more of craigslist or local drivetrain shops....up here a mounting kit is going to run me about $300 and will set the engine at some arbitrary angle and height because it apparently moves the eng. forward and up, I can probably add $150 min. to your driveshaft quote(Canada) plus I need a custom slip yoke at $150. and possibly now also have to alter the pinion angle(???) too....

 

Mr Nailhead. there are two ways of mounting the radiator, infront of the rad support and one behind,mounting in front will give you more space length wise Id forget the mid motormounts and get a rear crossmember style mount.front motormounts there are several aftermarket styles,sidemounts,. This should be a very simple swap but Im concerned about you trying to build this car with out what most would call basic tools. A welder or a friend who does welding is a must. along with a cutoff wheel of somekind. Also driveshaft. I dont know how far out in the sticks you live but I would load car on a trailer if you can get or rent one. Haul car to driveshaft shop and let them do thier thing. Yes it will cost some bucks but it will save you so much in stress and heart ache when you get one home and it dont fit and its your mesurements. Ask me how I've learned these things. Also my guy has a yard of shafts. He finds one close and cuts it down to fit. Balances,paints,checks for straightness and looks like a million bucks and he has nothing in parts, maybe a couple of u joints but its usually under 3 bills and I dont have to worry about it. But there is really nothing cheap about this hobby. Good luck

 

Thanks yruhot.... the kit i'm looking at bolts on after removing a couple rivets on the frame....a grinder and drill are basic tools I do have...I also have a 6 cyl rad support I can ditch the clutch fan and fart around with spacers etc...I see the big issue as being the "new" eng. and trans. angle in relation to the driveshaft/pinion etc.... I really didn't want to reinvent the whole car but I have enough hand tools and know how to do it if need be....add another $100. for towing lol!

 

I just wish I knew where the tailshaft sits (measuring from the trans tunnel to centre) in a stock application....mine came without driveline so I don't have a reference

 

That I couldn't tell you, other then it was original to that car...If I had to guess, it was the mid length transmission. I used an HEI, had to slightly massage the firewall with a BFH...what can I say ? It was a beater 1956 210 wagon.

 

With having a 350/TH400 combo, along with an HEI distributor, it would be best to convert to side mounting the engine, and adding a transmission extension housing crossmember. In doing that, I'd go with the kit that shifts your engine/trans 1 inch forward; that should give you enough room for an HEI with the BIG distributor cap. Your clutch fan will have to be swapped out for a "regular" fan. It may affect whatever headers/exhaust manifolds you're using or going to use. You CAN modify the stock front engine mounts by grinding/cutting on them to make clearance for the dampener. You could also go with a smaller diameter dampener; just make sure it's marked correctly for your timing marks. You can buy a transmission side mount kit that leaves the transmission just "hanging out", like the stock transmissions do. You could also add a rear, transmission extension housing crossmember. I've known guys who used just the front engine mounts, then added a rear crossmember; it's a long distance, but I've personally never seen anyone with any problems mounting things that way. You can use your stock front engine mounts (modified), and re-drill another set of holes forward in the frame to re-mount the stock mounts to, and add a rear crossmember. BUT, the best way is to side mount the engine, and go with a rear crossmember, using a kit that moves everything 1 inch forward. Your oil pan will be even more problematic if you move the engine forward at all! Trucks sometimes use a bigger/longer oil pan, and that may be your problem; swap out oil pans to one with a shorter length to the sump. You could also buy a specially notched oil pan, or have modified the stock 350 oil pan by "notching" it to make room for the steering cross shaft. You can get everything you need, and far cheaper than the prices you posted, off that auction site we all know and love. I know, because I have everything you need, and I'll probably never use them. I'm going to send you a PM with my phone number if you care to discuss it. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.

 

Thanks Butch I will take you up on that.....right now i'm leaning toward the modified stock mounts, old dist. converted to electronic (or bfh the firewall), and trans. mid mount kit because I'd rather change the dizzy than the oil pan I also like the idea of not messing with the original designer's idea of how low and set back the engine should be and that the angle of the trans isn't changed as it is in the side/rear mount, eng. forward/up combo, plus maybe the headers I have will still work....I was also thinking it couldnt hurt to put a rear cross member in too which would be a breeze with the trans. side mounts in already...redundant but couldn't hurt (I'm thinking the guys at Danchuk probably bore the pinion angle in mind in their design a lot better than I can) then I can look for a set of side mounts that clear the headers instead of vice versa

 

About the 10 Bolt, is it a 7.5 or an 8.2 or an 8.5. Each has a different length from the C/Line of the axle to the C/ line of the yoke so it is difficult to give a definitive answer as to what driveshaft will fit. Some of us on here belong to trifive.com, there is a ton of info on there. I have pic's of things I did to my 57 with a BB in it.
http://www.trifive.com/forums/index.php

 

Thanks! Ha ha you have me there! I don't know much about them only that it was a previous set up painted and what not (I guess I should say I just looked at that nicely painted 10 bolt and noticed 2 big grooves in the tubes so it has me worried) so I might use a stock rear...yes I am on there as well lots of good articles and threads on both but none mentioned much info about drive shafts and lots of conflicting stuff about eng/trans mounting etc. ...I have posted there as well maybe I keep not catching the old timey guys at the right times some of them are here I guess

 

finally hit enough right words to turn up something that we've already covered but fyi for those thinking of using the truck/van trans http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/th400-driveshaft-yoke-fitting-problems-fixes.228667/