As some may know I've been chasing electrical gremlins in my truck for some time now. I went through and replaced the majority of the relays I could find (I've had trouble with water leaking through the front window on and off which caused a little corrosion around the prongs of a few relays, but didn't seem to get to the main wiring harness (A ron francis harness)), but yesterday while driving I had one of those issue again that has been happening on and off. I lost dash power, fuel pump, and radio (with the key all the way on or in the accessory position). Lights and starter still had power. Anybody out there have any ideas? I'm still thinking about pulling the whole harness and wires out and rewiring it, but I'm a bit daunted at doing the whole job myself so I've been trying to trouble shoot what I have. Any thoughts as usually are very helpful.
Repair your water leaks first. Then with your intermittent problem accessories running, tug on their harnesses and try to get them to fail. this might zero you in on the problems location.
I'm not up on Francis setups, but it definitely sounds like there is a power relay for "key-on" type power. That is why the H/L and starter still works. The relay could be damaged, or corroded wires The only other thing is to check the ignition switch itself for power in, and then turn key on, then see if power is coming out of the terminal for "IGN" as well as "ACCY" We don't know if you have a modern ignition switch in the column, or the old original Ford column toggle ign switch?...or a dash ign switch.
I'd suggest digging up the wiring diagram for that wiring kit and following though the power feeds to the affected systems as F&J suggested in post 4. It could be a relay or it can be the connection to a relay or a junction connection for the power supply to those circuits. If there are male and or female slide connections in the circuits either at the fuse block or in the lines that is the first place I'd look. As it seems to be intermittent think something that is connected but loose enough to loose connection and maybe make the connection again with or without help. I had a female slide connector on my HEI where I needed the clip on HEI connector and that gave me fits for a long tie and gave more fits when it rained. The correct plug fixed the problem.
Not much info but you can narrow the issue a bit. There are 3 basic circuits, constant, ignition and assessory. Lights and starter still work so that eliminates the constant circuit since they run off of that. Ignition runs mostly just the coil power and sometimes things like fuel pump (depending on the way it's wired) and most everything else runs off assessory. Will it still start (coil power hot)? If so your failure is in the assessory circuit, I'd start at the ignition switch, test the assy. wire at the switch with a test light. If it's dead follow it backward till you have power and you'll find it. If it's hot then follow it forward to the fuse box. Sounds like the whole assy. part of the fuse panel is dead so it's got to be between the battery and the fuse box, shouldn't be that hard to find. Not many connections there (usually battery to switch to fuse panel), probably a loose or broken wire or due to the leaks a corroded connection. I had the same problem on a customer car just a couple weeks ago, the assy wire had came loose at the ignition switch, took just a few minutes to find and fix.
I'm not familer with Francis either but a relay for key on circuits? Why would they think they needed that? Sounds over complicated if they do. But then I've always thought Ron Francis kits are over priced and over complicated compared to most aftermarket wiring kits.
A key on relay is nothing new to the vehicle industry, it seems. My first experience was a 74 non-diesel International State Highway plow dump truck. Lots of accessories run off the key circuit on commercial trucks, which melts a typical Ignition switch. That truck was before the use of electronic relays, so International used an oil-filled, constant duty, solenoid that looks a lot like a starter solenoid. Turn key on, then a loud "clunk" as it was firewall mounted near the driver seat. I bet Francis does use the smaller electronic relay like the Bosch. Just think about all the "street rod must haves" that are key-on...A/C, windows, seats motors and seat heaters, the list is endless. That is far too much amp loads for an ignition switch. Crazy Steve will maybe see this and give the amp specs as far as "maximum", on typical Ign switches .
A little update. After looking at this with a friend we think it is the viper alarm/keyless entry system. So I think I'm going to try to replace that. Any suggestions for a super simple alarm with keyless entry? I don't need anything, except something that will sound an alarm when the doors are opened and will activate the locks. I don't have any manual way of unlocking the car from the outside with my current setup.
Relays are used because the key switches aren't designed to handle high current loads. Multiple relays can be controlled by the ignition switch. It also allows circuits to be fused independently.
I understand what relays are for and use them on certain high load items like fuel pumps or electric fans. I've never ran into them in the ignition switch to fuse panel circuit on either factory apps or even high end street rods. They are always after the fuse panel with an outside power to load source that bypasses the ignition switch. The OP lost power it sounds before the fuse panel. Of course now he has me confused since he thinks it's a alarm system. Unless everything is connected to the same circuit (fuse) how could anything wired in after the fuse panel kill everything in the fuse box that is keyed on? Strangepanel, is your alarm wired in ahead of the fuse box? How have you determined it's your alarm causing the problem? A keyless entry/ alarm should be in the constant, not keyed on circuits so I'm failing to see how it effects the keyed on circuit.
He has an electric fuel pump that is losing power which would be connected to the keyed on circuit. The alarm system might be designed to disable the fuel pump. I've seen systems that allow the fuel pump to run for a few minutes then shut down. That way, someone trying to steal the car can get it started, start to drive off and it shuts off the fuel. The purpose is to have it stop in a street where everyone will see it and the thieves will abandon it. Many thieves use enclosed trailers. They find an out of the way place to park the trailer, steal the vehicle and drive it into the trailer. If it shuts off on the way there they will likely abandon it as police might stop and check on them.
With the information furnished and without knowing how the truck is wired, troubleshooting on-line can only be an educated guess. And not all installers use proper 'logic' when connecting circuits, so a few more questions are in order.... 1. You say you're losing the fuel pump, radio, and 'dash power'. What exactly does 'dash power' consist of? Everything electrical on your dash quit working? Or just gauges? And I'm assuming that you're NOT finding a blown fuse, although I would definitely remove each fuse and check it for continuity with a test light or meter. Bad fuses aren't always obvious. 2. Do you have any other electrical items that work when the key is turned to 'ACC' (wipers, heater, power windows and/or seat, etc)? 3. Any in-line plugs between the fuse panel and the affected items? Check those for overheated or loose connections. If you have anything that is key-controlled in the 'ACC' key position that works, then the problems isn't in the key switch. If you've lost all of these circuits, then the key switch is likely the issue. If you have the typical in-dash key switch, max current through the switch (including loads on BOTH the ignition AND ACC terminals) shouldn't exceed 24 amps. If you have a late-GM locking column, then the switch is 'split' with separate switches for the ignition and accessory circuits. Limit the load on EACH switch to a max of 20 amps. If it's not the key switch, then you have an issue in a circuit or circuits. The fuel pump shouldn't be connected to the ACC position (and should be powered through a relay that doesn't get incoming power through the switch) but they may have picked up relay control power off of the affected circuit. First, to determine if it is just one circuit, check for continuity between the incoming power feeds to each item that doesn't work (you will have to remove all fuses from the fuse panel to isolate the circuit and prevent 'backfeeds'). If they all read to each other, it's all one circuit. Then identify the fuse position it comes out of by reading between the device end of the wire and the fuse sockets until you find it. Can't find it? Then you have a problem at the fuse panel. Did find it? Then check to make sure you have power at the other fuse socket; no power, bad panel. Have power? Bad fuse or bad fuse socket. If it turns out you have more than one circuit, then I'd suspect the fuse panel. This is just a best guess, but may get you pointed in the right direction....
First thanks to everyone that chimed in! It all gives me ideas of what to look for. Steve, in regards to your specific questions: 1. By dash power I mean the gauges. (Speedometer, odometer, volt meter, oil pressure etc.). The small lights that provide brake light and turn signal indication and everything on the more permanent circuits remain powered. I've not seen an intermittent fuse, but when I checked all of the fuses on the panel and the three line fuses near the three relays I know of they all worked. I also replaced all three of those relays in case water had damaged them. 2. I did not try the wipers or windows, but the AC and fan didn't work. I don't have power seats. 3. I have an ididit column with a column switch. I've not seen anything that worked that was key controlled when I have the issue. I guess I wouldn't be surprised if the switch is bad. Are these easy to replace? I see a small screw cap over the switch, but it isn't clear if that keyed switch pops out or not. Not sure if this is relay wired or not. Haven't seen a relay to it, but it may be deeper in the wiring than I've managed to look so far. The fuel pump definitely comes on when I turn the key to ACC. It's wired off of an odd accessory side of the panel through a ron francis crash relay. I replaced this relay recently, but this only controls the fuel pump and has no affect on the dash power or radio. I've replace my window gasket, but I need to do a little more work on that leak. I have an extra rubber piece to mount on the body that I've been told tends to work at keeping out the water. That is definitely high on my list of priorities. I also tried emailing Ron Francis and Ididit about the possibility of a key switch relay. I thought I saw an 80 AMP switch relay on one of those sites. Wedding this coming weekend, but I hope next weekend to get out and start digging through more wiring. I'll report back on what I find as I go through things. Thank you all for all the help and suggestions!
Ok, it definitely sounds like a failed ignition switch. Ididit doesn't sell a key-locking column (at least currently), so you probably have a OEM column. That's actually a good thing, as both GM and Ford mount the actual switch on the outside of the column under the dash, with mechanical linkage from the key to the switch. So you don't have to mess with the actual key switch.... You'll have figure out what column you have, and which switch is needed. But one thing they have in common is all of them use multiple inputs and outputs to reduce load on the contacts. You can try just replacing the switch, but if you have another failure then I'd check to see just how it's wired. And I'll caution you about large relays (anything rated over 30 amps). If it has plug-in connectors on it, it's only rated for 30 amps, period. I don't care what Ron Francis (or any other automotive supplier) tells you. Above 30 amps, you want bolted connections for the line/load connections. The coil connections can be plug-in, but not the load. Check at industrial electronics suppliers, or McMaster-Carr sells 'em (up to 200 amps). Look for 'High Inrush DC relays'.
Instrument cluster regulator?????maybe check that out I believe it works a little like a flasher it has a small metal strap that heats up and moves away from its power source then cools and touches back down over and over..it takes 12 volts and drops it down to a lower voltage... depends on how the car is wired....just thought I throw my thoughts in...hope one of can help out..
A little more info from Ididit: "The ididit ignition column uses a internal electronic ignition system. It does go through a relay pack. As a result the column key will have a low resistance to it, and a much different feel. It might matter, for you, if you have a computer controlled engine or carburetor." This is a keyed Ididit column, with the key towards the front at the 5 o'clock position. Horrible idea actually. Taller people tend to knock the key and turn the car off getting in and out. Trying to find out if they sell a replacement relay, then I'll go looking for that thing and see if replacing it helps.
Well, bummer.... Further looking does show that they make a keyed locking column. Here's the test procedure for the switch.... http://www.ididitinc.com/pdf/IgnitionSwitchTest_TechSheet.pdf If I'm reading their tech description right, this switch is light-duty and must be used with relays to actually switch the loads. So you may have a bad relay. If the switch is bad, the bummer is they don't sell the switch... you have to return the column to them for repair....
Yes, Ididit basically confirmed to repair the switch you need to send the whole column back. They are being very accommodating as far as saying that they will cover the repair under warranty. IT will still be a major pain to take it out and ship it back to them so before I do that I want to check all of those relays to make sure one hasn't gone bad or a ground on one of them isn't an issue. It looks like they use a relay set with two 40 amp relays and one 70 amp relay.
I don't know who designed something like that but they should try something different in life. That's just stupid on their part. Sorry to be so blunt, but am I mistaken? I always had disdain for that place when I saw their first mickey mouse product that was a adjustable floor mount for the lower column. A grade school kid could have made something that did not look so amateur
Doesn't everybody wire their loom thru an 'IDIOT' column? I walked past their booth at the last goodguise I was invited to, did a quick soul search about WHY I ACCEPTED!
This is why I avoid aftermarket stuff that uses proprietary parts if at all possible (or at least parts subject to wear or failure). While you're in there, you may want to check that the column actually was wired using relays for load switching. If the installer 'sneaked' a load onto the switch, that may be your problem....
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