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Technical 2004r Installed convertor wrong - now what?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by blanchae, Apr 15, 2016.

  1. Sounds like something is fucked up.
    If you're WOT it should shift fast and sledgehammer hard and not till well over 3000 rpms. More like 6000 range.

    The 1000 rpm flash depends on the converter not that it's right but that's how they work.

    Down shifts while slowing should be nearly undetectable. Probably a bit latter than you'd want in order to give it good whomp after the turn.

    Sounds a lot like govener problems
     
  2. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

    Thanks for your feedback, I have a "stock" converter. I don't drag race and was hoping that sometime down the road to take it racing just once. Very disappointed with the whole process. Really don't know if it is me (which unfortunately happens a lot) or just circumstances that I had a good tranny to start with but screwed up the TV cable and fried the clutches or what.

    I only now realize how nice my TH350 was. Instant response, down shifts and up shifts smooth and tight. Not bad for a 1976 Camaro transmission. The only thing missing was an overdrive gear.
     
  3. EnglishJon
    Joined: Oct 27, 2009
    Posts: 39

    EnglishJon
    Member

    I'm sorry you've such problems with your 200r. Get in touch with Chris at www.ckperformance.com
    They are probably the best 200r builders in the country, and will be able to get you back on the road to happy 200r ownership. It's a great transmission, and built right will have you wondering why you ever had a TH350.
     
  4. F.O.G
    Joined: Oct 31, 2006
    Posts: 259

    F.O.G
    Member
    from Pacific,Mo

    Make sure the builder threw the throttle exhaust check ball in the trash, will cause endless
    problems if they didn't. Been a long time since my last 200 o/drive but I DO remember
    that fact.
     
  5. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 11,625

    Atwater Mike
    Member

    Rough road thru this thread, my condolences. I still have my 350 T.H., love the consistency.
    That throttle cable looks like another B.M. from B&M, in its post-'60s 'performance' since the company's original changing of hands.
    I recall the shifters, (remember the 'Big Stick' setup on the original 'Hydro-Sticks'?)
    The 'new' shifters were not of the same or similar quality, suddenly it was chrome plating with poly ethylene spacers, fitted into blister paks, available everywhere.
    Anybody else's minds scream when customers brought these things by to install?
     
  6. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

    I installed a B&M Unimatic shifter then found out there's no reverse backup light switch and no option to buy one so had to fab my own:

    http://www.route66hotrodhigh.com/Unimatic.html

    The 2-1 hard clunking downshift seems to be because the bands are too tight according to Transgo.

    The servo pin has to be filed down for 0.60 to 0.100 clearance. Here's a link to TCI's instructions:

    http://www.jegs.com/InstallationInstructions/800/890/890-386005.pdf

    Here's El Camino Central's forum has a posting with valuable pdf's from Transgo including tech notes on troubleshooting:

    http://www.elcaminocentral.com/showthread.php?t=47648

    Transgo has a video assistance page with a step by step video on how to install their kits without taking the transmission out. They show the best method yet to setup the TV cable for WoT. It does need the tranny pan to be removed but I have to remove it to change the internal speedometer cable so it works for me.

    http://www.transgo.com/video.html
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2016
  7. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

  8. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

    Now for the last problem to research: flare when shifting. The engine revs up about 1000 rpm when shifting this is called flare. What causes it and how to fix it?
     
  9. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

    loudbang likes this.
  10. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 12,592

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    I don't if this has been said but I think you need to remove the B&M shift kit and install a trans go kit.
     
  11. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

    Don't know what shift kit was put in, it was a "crate" Stage 1 street/strip transmission that I bought from Florida
     
  12. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

  13. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

    Took the servo out and it is a very nice billet servo with only the accumulator spring (small spring) installed - no cushion spring (big spring). Hard 2-1 down shifts can be caused by too light of pressure from the springs installed. The lighter springs give harder/firmer shifts while heavier springs make smoother shifts like stock transmissions. So the simple fix is to upgrade the springs to stock springs, so off to the wreckers I go.

    Now 2004R transmissions are rare as hen's teeth so after spending 2 hours looking at 3 wreckers and about 800 vehicles, I couldn't find one. The two vehicles that would of had one were stripped bare. :( So I went home disappointed.

    At home, I realized that the TH200C transmission uses a similar servo (it is actually better!) so I went back looking for 1980s cars that had the TH200C installed. 2 hours later and nothing. :(

    Of course this happens on Saturday afternoon and the transmission supply shops are closed until Monday.
     
  14. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

    Adjusted the TV cable WOT max position according to the Transgo video linked above. Very interesting as I set the gas pedal to the floor and pulled the TV cable tight. Then I checked the throttle valve in the transmission to see if it was completely closed and it wasn't! So I readjusted the TV cable at the carb until the throttle valve was completely closed. Very surprised that the first adjust was so off because it felt tight.
     
  15. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

    1-2 Accumulator and spring: if you have a high stall converter and over 400 hp, remove spring, piston and block off fluid passage. If you are driving street and want softer shifts, replace spring with a lighter spring. Harder shifts replace with stiffer spring. The springs are color coded - originally the darker the spring, the stiffer it is but I have seen them every color.

    Servo springs: work opposite to 1-2 accumulator: lighter springs give harder shifts. Softer springs lighten up the shifts. Some shift kits remove the cushion (large) or the return spring (small). GM part numbers are listed but they are not available from GM anymore.

    8628109 Spring, 200/200C/200-4R Intermediate Servo Cushion (Purple) 1976-Up
    8628110 Spring, 200/200C/200-4R Intermediate Servo Cushion (No Color) 1976-Up
    8628114 Spring, 200/200C/200-4R Intermediate Servo Cushion (Blue) 1976-Up
    8630117 Spring, 200/200C/200-4R Intermediate Servo Cushion (White) 1976-Up
    8632147 Spring, 200/200C/200-4R Intermediate Servo (Inner) 1976-Up
    8632661 Spring Transmission servo & accumulator
    8634703 Spring Transmission servo & accumulator (Red soft)
    8639035 Spring Transmission servo & accumulator
    8639264 Spring, 200-4R Intermediate Servo Cushion 1981-Up White
    8657012 Spring, 200-4R 1-2 Accumulator (White) 1981-Up

    Large Cushion Spring
    Lightest: Common yellow spring OEM #8628109
    Heaviest: (some models) Red spring OEM #8639264

    Return Spring
    Lightest: Common pink original spring OEM #8632661
    Medium: TCI® spring included in kit
    Heaviest: Uncommon black spring OEM #8632147
     
    loudbang likes this.
  16. pigfluxer
    Joined: Feb 15, 2006
    Posts: 207

    pigfluxer
    Member

    Stay at it,you have a nice looking car and it will be great to here when you have solved your problems.
     
  17. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

    Thanks, so I put a 0.100 washer behind the servo return spring to "stiffen" up the spring and added a cushion spring in. No way would it fit in. Tried different combinations with/without cushion spring or washer and none worked. The only way it would fit in was the original way. The billet servo just did not want to play. So I'm looking for a stock servo. Frustrating.
     
  18. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

    Finally found a 1985 Caprice with a 2004r in the junkyard and pulled the complete servo and the 1-2 accumulator spring. Now looking for new ring seals for the servo. The stock servo needs one large O ring for the cover and 3 lip seals. It has them but I would like to install new ones. The billet one has the large O ring but only 2 lip seals. So trying to source the small internal lip seal. Here's a good resource for 2004r parts:

    http://www.transmissioncenter.com/2..._Performance_Transmission_Parts_from_PATC.htm

    As I've mentioned before, finding parts for this transmission is very difficult. King-o-matic has a transmission catalog that lists pretty much all the parts for the 200-4r but no servo parts. When I called them up, they said that all of the 200-4r parts are discontinued and no longer stocked but it is a good resource for part numbers:

    http://www.kingomatic.com/King-O-Matic/media/KOM/catalogues/2014-AT-Catalog-Combined.pdf
     
  19. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

    Got it all together, hooked up the transmission pressure gauge. Everything looked good, took it for a test ride and 2 blocks from my house the servo lock ring let go and then the servo blew out. The cover and part of the servo ended up on the street. I was able to limp home and park it in the garage then went to look for the parts. The cover was in good shape the other part wasn't as a chunk was missing and both teflon seals were nowhere to be found.

    When I installed the servo, I put my pry bar on it and bounced it several times to make sure that it was seated and locked in place. It sure seemed to be.

    Tomorrow, I'll put in the billet servo with the stock spring and test it again. Sigh...
     
    loudbang likes this.
  20. keep at it, your slowly winning.
     
  21. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

    Put back the billet servo with a stock return spring, it snapped into place nicely. Now it finally shifts nicely. BTW one click of the TV cable makes the difference from hard shifts to firm shifts and NO clunking on the 2-1 downshift!
    • Changed governor to Monte Carlo SS
    • Changed 1-2 accumulator spring to stock
    • Changed the billet servo return spring to stock
    Incidentally, today I found the stock servo cover O ring and the servo teflon seals on the road when it ejected yesterday but couldn't find the snap ring. Still have to adjust the back-up light switch on the B&M Unimatic floor shifter. I had to fab up a back-up light switch/cam for the Unimatic as it doesn't come with one. Here's how I did it:
    http://www.route66hotrodhigh.com/Unimatic.html
     
    tb33anda3rd likes this.
  22. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

    In the continuing saga, I have a bad vibration at around 1800 rpm even in park. Is it the engine or the torque converter? I'll have to disconnect the torque converter again and rev the engine to see. I hadn't noticed it before the transmission install. Sigh...

    I have a 400 SBC that is externally balanced. I don't think that should make a difference.
     
  23. The 400 SBC takes a special balancer and special flex plate. Anything else will cause vibrations and anything else will also fit. The converter doesn't care what it's bolted to and neither does the Trans.

    image.jpeg
     
  24. miker98038
    Joined: Jan 24, 2011
    Posts: 1,143

    miker98038
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    One more thing to watch. I got an externally balanced flexplate for a 400 sbc that did that. Turned out it was for an external balance big block (IIRC). Was visually ok till placed alongside the right one. Mis packaged by the manufacturer.
     
  25. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

    I've had the 400 sbc with the old TH350 behind it for about 12 years. I installed it with a new harmonic balancer and an external balanced flexplate. I'm using those components. Been too busy to check. I've read that sometimes, you can fix the vibration by rotating the converter on the flexplate one mounting hole (120 deg).
     
  26. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

    Update, transmission finally shifts how I like:
    1. Replaced torque converter with a 1800 stall one for a Corvette, pulls nice from the line as soon as I touch the gas.
    2. Replaced governor with one from a 86 Grand National - this is for wide open shift point
    3. Replaced billet 1-2 servo with a stock one to reduce hard upshifting and downshifting. This added in the spring to soften the shifts that the billet one didn't have.
    4. Replaced 3-4 servo spring with stock one to soften the shifting
    Now the transmission shifts nice and firm but no bang shifting

    One of the problems that I was working on was a noisy exhaust donut on the passenger side. When I went to work on it, I saw that the rear of the exhaust manifold was just touching the firewall support frame. Which led to the vibration and noise which was caused by a sequence of events:

    1. The motor mounts are big rubber donuts. After about 6 years the rubber had softened and the engine lowered about 1/2 inch which put the oilpan in contact with one of the return metal tubes on the top of the rack n pinion unit. The rubbing worn a hole in the rnp pipe so I replaced it and raised the engine 3/4" for clearance.
    2. No problem but when I installed the 2004R, the transmission mount tilted the engine up enough for the back of the top of the passenger side exhaust manifold to just touch the support frame on the firewall. This physical contact generated the noise I heard and vibration I felt.
    3. I lowered the engine 3/8" on the passenger side and no more vibration or noise.

    This is the story from about 15 years ago when I installed the passenger side exhaust manifold and had to route it through the firewall support frame.
     
  27. Wow glad you figured it all out and glad I had a good friend do the 200 build and install on wife's 50 Chevy. Only complaint I have is I think the converter stall is a little higher than needed ,2200. ZZ3 small block pushing it with 373 rear gear for about 3 years with no problems.
     
  28. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,814

    BJR
    Member

    You should get the persaverance award for all the issues you had with that transmission, and seeing it through to get it working correctly.
     
  29. southcross2631
    Joined: Jan 20, 2013
    Posts: 4,413

    southcross2631
    Member

    Good job sticking with it. I have bought several projects cheap because of lack of patience and the owner just threw up their hands and said this car is cursed. Or their wife said no more money can be spent.
     
  30. blanchae
    Joined: Jun 6, 2008
    Posts: 57

    blanchae
    Member

    Another update two years later. Still was having a hard clunking on downshifting and finally solved that problem. The rear universal joint broke, 3 blocks from home and dropped the driveshaft! I was able to coast to the side of the road, walk back home, get my truck and replace the universal joints. It wasn't the transmission after all. :-(

    I must of tested the universal joints 5 or 6 times but I tested it wrong. I put the tranny in park and checked to see if there was any play in the driveshaft - naturally there wasn't because it was in park! I was talking to my mechanic friend about it and he pointed out that I should of jacked up the rear end and put it in neutral. The ironic part is I knew that was the proper way to check.

    So with the fixed driveshaft and no clunking off I went for the first ride of the season. I got 1 mile away and the driver's side lower control arm broke when I was braking, the wheel folded into the wheel well and I came to a screeching stop sliding across 2 lanes. Fortunately, there was no traffic. So I've been rebuilding the lower and upper control arms with polyurethane bushings and heavier fittings. There was minimal damage: lower control arm ,one shock damaged and a sway bar linkage bent. I rebuilt the lower and upper control arms on both sides and made them about 4 times stronger in all the weak spots.
     
    Hnstray and David Gersic like this.

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