Technical Violent front end shaking

Can I add something about brakes...and VW engineers...
When the strut front suspension Super Beetle arrived here in 71, it was called the shimmy beetle in some shops. Some of these were never ending complaint cars, and some exact models were not bad. VW eventually got tired of paying/warrantee for new struts and new balljoints, new dampers and etc, and redesigned the front struts in mid 73. The strut attached differently to the spindle.

The interesting thing I recall, the new bigger type 4 came here in that time. Some of these were incurable as far as front end shimmy. VW issued the dealers, a pair of $$ pressure gauges on raised stands, to measure/compare disc brake readings? I was working for the used car dept then, so I'm not up on if that solved anything. My point of this post, is that VW R&D assumed strongly enough, that brake or brake drag, could trigger shimmy?

The OP said in post one or so, he greased it and something like that he noticed a brake dragging. I asked about that before. Does it have a bearing on this, or not?
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Just because the steering box was good, doesn't mean it's good now.

 

I agree, and the OP originally said the wheel had play...and that is why I posted twice on how to set/check it.

Everyone's suggestions definitely do have merit in chasing this issue IMO.
. But we are not there to even see angles, or yank on the tires, or see if the spring bolts are tight.

If this was a TV game show with only one blind "try", and no modern parts like dampers or P bar can be added, I'd cut the caster in half. I always wanted to try just that first, on a DW car, but never had the chance.

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Yeah, that would be a really good experiment . . . think about how AAFD dragsters "flop" their wheels in the front due to their extreme caster settings. Maybe a DW situation kind of starts out like that?

As you noted, would love to inspect this car, put it up on a rack, put it on an alignment rack and see if something can be figured out . . . fixing by guessing never makes me happy (though we've all done it!).

And to the point that KOZ made - we're ALL just speculating!

 

Another thing I've been pondering - would like to know what others have experienced:

1) On my original 32-34 Fords (haven't owned anything later), the drag link and tie-rod ends always had the springs/cups to hold the tie-rod ends/balls in place. When I think about this, it is kind of like having a vibration damper in the system - in four different places in a single front end.

Obviously Ford changed to a cross-steer setup in later years - am curious of original drag-link setups (side steer) - di they ALWAYS have the spring/cup dampers in them or not (on early Fords)?

Has anybody who has chased or been involved in DW situations seen any correlation between the type of rod-ends used on the drag link and tie-rod - and the problems we're discussing? Has loosening or tightening the springs/cups/balls of an early setup caused a situation to start happening . . . or stop happening?

I can surely see (guess is more like it) where "bump steer" feedback might be influenced by the type of rod-ends - maybe DW situations are influenced as well? Also, think about the rubber wishbone mounting "ball" that the stock suspensions had - another point that absorbed vibration/shock in the overall front-end.

Just curious about this . . . as it may be related to the overall "damper" situation that is part of this discussion.

Keep the ideas coming . . .

 

I like you are saying "starts out like that" . DW is a chain reaction. Some ideas/suggestions so far, deal with two separate attacks on curing it. One attack is to prevent the start, the other is to find out what makes a "start", turn into a chain reaction.

You also said alignment rack. When we put a car up on low friction turntables to align, we turn wheels in/ out 20 degrees to measure caster. If we have a normal car with caster at 1-1/2 degree, we can easily turn the tire by hand to 20, and it stays there. And we don't really see one side of the nose go up, and other side going down as we go to 20.

Then we get a car set at 8 degree. As we try by hands on tire, to go to 20, there is a lot more force needed, and it does not want to stay there at 20 while we reset the bubble. And we notice one side of the nose jumps way up, and other side dives hard.

The two low speed DW cars I have been in, it sure feels like those old cartoon movies where the animated car is walking like a person, with fender coming up, and the other going down. I did not get the feeling that all the violence was just tires flopping side to side.

 

Now were getting some good stuff here. I would ask again if anybody has any factory engineering studies on this stuff?

 

Ha, Koz, I must have been reading your mind in the last few minutes..

I came back to say something that I need to research in the books that I don't have:

A few weeks back, I was web searching different possible spindle donors for a old car with I beam. As you know, different spindles have different KPI. From what I could find, but can't verify yet, the F1 used 8 degree on the KPI. Then I checked F100, and was shocked to see one site gave 4 degrees KPI.

The box design was changed at that same time. Why did they do this, and how does a drastic change in KPI affect things? My certification was only for crash repairs and adjustments, not design qualification.

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Here are some links and comments from sites that discuss DW in trucks (primarily with solid axles like ours). Just as we're discussing - it can be an elusive beast to problem solve and cure:

http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/ch...ing-death-wobble-tightening-up-your-steering/

"Death wobble is nothing but a harmonic Vibration (Resonance) I have seen this on many Jeeps and other straight axle vehicles. It is usually due to parts being worn. Every part has a frequency that it will resonate at. Tires included. Air pressure will effect that frequcey. When you hit a pothole of any size you send a frequency insto the front end. Vehicle speed will vary it as well.

Trac bars, and steering stablizers do help to kill the harmonics. Think of them as a finger resting on the middle of a guitar string."

============== Great Technical Information Below - From a Jeep Site ================

Death Wobble explained…
Here's an engineering description of DW. I get tired of seeing people guessing at what's causing their DW, so here goes. Hope it helps someone.

First, you've got to realize that the front suspensions on our vehicles were marginally stable, at best, from the factory. DW is a fundamental dynamic response mode of the entire front end...as a system. Lift and larger tires change (increase) the 'gain' associated with what becomes (or even starts out as) a marginally stable dynamic system. The damping factor (lambda) is also affected by larger tires...it decreases as a function of sidewall height/thickness ratio. Hysteresis in any control path (loose tie rod, steering box, track bar bushing) reduces the ultimate stability margin further. The fundamental frequency of DW is determined by the superposition principle where all springs involved are resolved (frame, tire resilience, hub bending, bushing deflection, etc, etc.) into one global spring constant, and all damping factors associated with friction, elastic elements, viscous damping (steering damper and shocks) are resolved into one damping factor. The natural frequency, damped natural frequency, and damping coefficient are then known. Now, if the system is overdamped and the gain is low...no problems...no oscillation. Increase the gain without increasing the damping and you go toward the critically damped, and beyond, specturm of responses. Critically damped means that DW would only 'hint' at being there, but would die out on its own without going totally unstable. This is also known as a decaying response.

Once the system goes beyond critically damped, any excitation, be it an unbalanced tire, a bent wheel, bumps in the road, etc. can set it off and the response will not decay...it will grow in amplitude, quite quickly in some cases, and may be limited only be physical non-linearities like hard stops...or breakage. That's classic Death Wobble.

A truck suspension is designed to stay in the overdamped to critically damped range. That is generally why a truck rides "rough". A Cadillac, on the other hand, is designed to stay in the undersprung range. It just "floats" down the road. Any change in the basic design parameters that affect the gain (e.g., lift, tire size, wheel backspacing, etc.), damping (tire size, steeringdamper, steering box condition), and hysteresis (any wear point that creates any slop) can push it over the edge and create DW. ANY ONE OR TWO of the factors discussed can do that...which is why everybody then thinks that whatever problem THEY found and fixed is the cause of all DW; it is not. It is plain and simply a marginally stable system in its original form that is easily made unstable by any of the myriad causes discussed already.

If your front end is loose (bushings, bearings, etc.) then you have a situation where your stiffness is removed and any jarring sensation (potholes, unbalanced tires, misaligned wheels, etc.) will cause the suspension to go crazy. It is no longer functioning where it is designed. On the other hand, your suspension could be very tight but an imbalanced tire would be spinning at just the right speed to throw the suspension into a unstable situation.

So unfortunately there isn't only one root cause to the problem of DW. The underlying problem is instability in the front suspension, the root causes can be a multitude of things ranging from bad/loose bushings, to loose bearings, to caster angles, to imbalanced tires, etc.

OKAY, HERE'S THE REALLY USEFUL INFO:

A steering damper only hides (maybe) the effect; it does nothing to fix the root cause.

There are two types of DW. The first typically is speed related. Whenever you reach a certain speed, bam, you get DW, no matter what. This is a vibration/oscillation issue. Look into tirebalance, alignment, steering joints, missing bushings (totally shot), loose steering box (either loose bolts or worn internals), etc.

The second is an impact initiated DW. For example, hitting a pothole above a certain speed will start DW. This is more likely a bushings, loosening mounts, flexing components, etc. issue. Basically, something is tight enough that in general straight driving, it is ok, but give it an impact force, whatever is getting loose starts sliding, rebounds and starts going nuts.

Here is how you can tell if the issue is steering related or trackbar related. You are gonna need some ***** for this, but stick with me. Once you have played around with the DW awhile you find you can control it a bit by feathering the brakes. So go find a straight, deserted, bumpy road. Get the truck up to speed and get the DW going. You had it happen a few times, you have already been frantically avoiding potholes, so now go find one, quit whining. At this point, the truck is somewhat violently shaking, and you can keep enough control using the brakes to keep it on the road. Roll down the window and stick your head out and look at the front tire. What is it doing?

1. The front of the tire and the back of the tire are moving approximately the same amount side to side. In this case, the axle is stationary, and the wheel is pivoting on the ball joint during the oscillation. Therefore the problem is likely in the steering. Something in the steering has enough give to allow the movement.

2. The back of the tire is moving MORE than the front of the tire in the side-to-side movement. In this case, the knuckle is pivoting on the steering links, and allowing the axle to move back and forth under the vehicle. The problem here is most likely in the trackbar system.

This doesn't really answer a question about what's causing YOUR DW, but it should give you something to think about in your search for the root cause(s). I'd check the trac bar bushings, make sure your wheel bearings are in spec, make sure your tires are balanced, make sure your alignment is in spec - especially caster, make sure your ball joints & TREs are tight, see if you have play in your steering box, etc.

Everybody got all that? ;D
Steve
09/20/06, 08:29 PM
Here are a couple of Q&As I've received on another forum where I wrote about DW:

Can you explain why reducing caster helps on some vehicles? It doesn't seem like it should work, but it does.. and at other times more caster will cure it.

Basically, anything you do to get the front suspension back closer to original factory specs should help with DW. Remember, a lot of our vehicles were marginally stable from the factory, and when we lift them, change the steering, run huge tires, etc., we're making them even less stable. So, running the caster at whatever it was from the factory, along with making sure that the many other things affecting the front suspension are in good condition, will help greatly.

Unfortunately, there's no silver bullet for fixing DW, and what works for one person may not work for another. You have to consider the entire front suspension as a system and then make that system as stable as you can for the way you want to run it.

Pondering how too much caster can cause wobble, the more caster you have, the larger the vertical movement of the wheel will be, under steering input. More vertical movement = more influence that the weight of the rig can have on it, and particularly with large soft tires, that would be a fairly substantial, mostly undamped, weight hanging out there. Get it cycling, and it's not going to want to stop.

I really oughta crank down my caster a bit (front at 8 degrees) but no steering feedback = very difficult to get actual DW, so I've been lazy.
Scott, let's take it to the extreme to see why too much caster can make the suspension system unstable. Picture 90* of caster. The ball joints/kingpins would be horizontal, so when you turned the wheels they would turn top to bottom and not side to side. 90* is extreme, but the more + caster you have the more the wheels are turning top to bottom and less side to side. Besides getting pretty unstable (and VERY heavy steering feel) with much more than 10* or so, you also start scrubbing the tires pretty bad when turning with too much caster.


NOTE: For reference purposes, here is a diagram of what caster is. Positive caster is when the top of the tire "leans" toward the rear of the vehicle as depicted in the diagram.

http://www.familycar.com/classroom/I...ign_Caster.gif

Curing deathwobble is definetly a reality. Deathwobble isn’t similar to a wobble from an unbalanced tire. It is by far worse. When deathwobble hits you will know… it’s a violent shake form the front end that feels like the Jeep is about to fall apart. Usually when it happens the only thing you can do to stop it is slow down. The first steps to eliminate deathwobble should be a visual inspection of each component, check the bushings, tire balance and an alignment. There are some common things you must check anytime you lift your Jeep. Deathwobble is experienced mostly on lifter Jeeps, however it is not uncommon for someone without a lift to experience the dreaded DW.

Listed below are a few things you can check.

Torque specs:

Item ........................................ Ft. lbs. ................... Nm

Lug nuts (1/2 X 20 w/ 60* cone) .... 85-115 .............. 115-150
All tie rod ends ............................ 55 ..................... 74
Steering (both ends) .................... 55 ..................... 74
Shock absorber upper nut .............. 16 ..................... 22
Shock absorber lower nuts ............. 17 ..................... 23
UCA frame end ............................. 66 ..................... 89
UCA axle end ............................... 55 ...................... 74
LCA frame end ............................. 85 ...................... 115
LCA axle end ............................... 85 ...................... 115
Track bar frame end ..................... 60 ...................... 81
Track bar axle end ....................... 40 ....................... 54
Track bar bracket bolts ................. 92 ....................... 125
Track bar bracket nut ................... 74 ....................... 100
Track bar bracket support bolts ...... 31 ....................... 42
Hub bolts (3) ............................... 75 ....................... 102
Hub- axle bolt .............................. 175 ..................... 237

Alingment specs (stock):

Angle ............. Preferred ........... Range ............. Max R/L diff.

Caster ............ +7.0* ........ +5.25* to +8.5* ......... 1.25*
Camber ........... -0.25* ....... -0.75* to +0.5 ........... 1.0*
Total Toe-in .... +0.25* ....... 0* to +0.45* ............. .05*
Thrust angle .... 0* to ± 0.15*

Check your Track Bar, play in this can cause the axle to shake.
1. Bushings - check to see that they are not worn. Looks for cracks, and excessive play)
2. Angles - this angle should be the same as your draglink. Use an angle finders you can get at sears to determine this, don’t just eye-ball it.
3. Bolts – Make sure all bolts are tightened down to spec (some lift components have a different torque spec then)

Check the Axle, your mounts may be worn
1. Check the axle mount. Here is a good write up on a wallowed out bolt hole
http://www.jeepin.com/features/trackbarfix/index.asp
2. Check your Universal joints, a binding or lose U-Joint can cause DW
3. On the frame end if you still use the conventional Tie Rod End or (TRE) make sure that there is no play in this, as play can cause DW.
4. Look/Check for worn/torn boots on ball joints/tie-rod ends.

Check your Tires
1. Out of balance tires can cause shaking in the front end, which can lead to deathwobble.
2. Make sure all of your lug nuts are tight, (Sounds elementary but it happens to the best of us)

Check your Frame
1. Small cracks in the frame can cause the steering box to feel loose, Shaking from DW can only make this worse. 33’s and larger should have some form of Steering box brace, or frame brace in.
2. If you have upgraded your frame mount, make sure its cranked down nice and tight. (best to use an impact gun)
3. A busted Frame Mount can cause play in the front end causing DW (Keep a watchful eye on the welds as welds in sheer can break over time.

Make sure you have a good alignment
1. After you get an alignment done, have them print out the numbers for you. An XJ should have a 7* positive caster angle. A lifted XJ can’t always have that high of a number because the pinion would become out of alignment with the front driveshaft. Pinion angle takes precedence over caster.
2. Make you sure you go to a place that will adjust the caster if necessary (either by shims in the frame side of the LCAs, or adjustable LCAs).

The more adjustable parts the easier it is to tune in your suspension.
1. Adjustable Track Bar
2. Adjustable Upper and Lower Control Arms (upper ones above 4” of lift). Not only are they adjustable, but they are stronger.


Things to remember:
1. A Steering Stabilizer (SS) is not a quick fix for DW.

Entire list of everything that can cause deathwobble:
-Front tires out of balance
-Front alignment out of spec
-Loose track bar
-Worn track bar bushings
-Worn track bar end
-Need adjustable track bar
-Bad bushings/joints in control arms
-Worn/damaged steering stabilizer
-Worn/damaged shocks
-Worn/damaged tie rod end
-Bad U Joint
-Bad ball joint
-Loose frame mount
-Steering box looseness
-Need drop pitman arm
-Driveshaft(s) not balanced
-Bad front hub assembly

 

Excellent article. We need to add, most Jeeps use either parallel leafs or unequal A frames if I am correct. Most rods, use a traverse spring which brings shackles and the like into play. Also most rods, (not all), do not run a track bar, (panhard bar), on the front, and I will add most do not need one. Deadman perches and shackles will do essentially the same thing. Good stuff there.

 

I realize this thread started because the OP is having severe DW issues. That being said , this is a great thread. Thanks to you guys for all of the enlightenment. I for one appreciate it. Bill

 

bump steer

 

Warning

Trying to read this thread and actually figure out what is right and what isn't or even what might be right will induce possible brain wobble.

 

Let's go deeper than the things relating to the Jeep guru...that he did not mention.

Dick Spadaro I believe, was the only person to mention "caster trail" on one of the hamb threads. As he said; the trail is an imaginary line drawn on the pavement.

How long is the trail if you drew it with chalk? The rearwards end of that trail, is purely a plumb bob line from the spindle snout, but that only gives the rearward ending but not how far, left or right of the car.

The front end of the trail is purely established by the caster tilt of the king pin.

Physics always wins. The tire "wants" to "point" to that forward point. It will try much harder to point there, if that point is further ahead of the spindle. That is why we add caster to keep the car straight. If we set caster to zero, the tire does not want to point in any particular direction.

That part was easy. But the left or right location of the trail line is established by the tilt of the king pin inwards at the top. that is King Pin Inclination. So, you draw an imaginary centerline of the king pin, to the pavement. This establishes the left/right location of the caster trail line.

We already know that the car wheel/tire wants to point to the front of that line, but if we have wrong offset wheels, or wheel adapters, or disc kits, the center of the tire is now outside of the trail line. This is referred to as the Scrub Radius being wrong.

So, if the trail line is not under the tire, I must assume that the that the rolling resistance of that tire, is causing the spindle to want to turn outwards. If the line was smack dab under the center of the tire tread, the rolling resistance will not be able to try to steer the spindle.

Having the scrub way off, means that anything the tire hits, will have a much greater outwards steering force on the spindle.

My question would be to Dick; if we cannot get a perfect scrub, can we monkey with caster to outsmart it?

reading Dicks posts, I have to believe the root cause of setting up the initial DW start, is to have something wrong with the trail, and how the tire "sits" on that trail/or doesn't.

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Not in a long time.

From 1984-2001 in the Cherokee, and a little later on the Wrangler, the front suspension was a solid axle, with four leading links, in a triangulated fashion, with a track bar (pandard).

Those are the very ones prone to death wobble.

 

I say swap the front tires side-to-side and test drive.
If it still exists look around and see if you can borrow another pair of wheels and tires that will fit and drive on them as a test.
There are hundreds of threads on "out-of-round bias ply tires", so don't be surprised.

Question: has the tire pressures been changed up or down?

Been building and driving straight axle Hot Rods for 45 years, and a tire that going/gone bad will drive you nuts.
They don't have to have any visual signs.

 

are you sure the steering box is centered when wheels are straight ahead. In most all steering boxes the gears are lapped so they are tight at center and develop play off center. If you are running a box that is not centered you may have a lot of slop between the worm and sector gears, and is the steering arm tight? Excessive play will give the wobble, bump steer will usually just make the car jump to one side.

 

Check the pic in post #89 and you can see he has a wheel offset far more than Henry designed. He's lucky if the kingpin points at the very inner edge of the tire patch. I think it might be the disk brake kit's fault, or maybe the wheels themselves.

But this still doesn't answer why the "DW" is only starting now, after 1,500 miles. The tires didn't just get that much wider.

Did anybody mess with the wheel bearings? How about you just check their tightness, for sh!ts and giggles? Also take the cotter pins out of the tie rod end nuts and give them a snugging up while you are at it.

 

Wobble death or otherwise is almost always:

• Wimpy components
• "F'd" up geometry
• bad tires

This is where the problem is...ain't rocket science!

 

following & enjoying this post - lot of good info & theory. Love to know final cure -if there really is one. Had same/similar problem with bad rubber bushing & again with bad tire - broken belts in tire. Like the idea to test other rim/tire & switch sides. Somebody mentioned bent spindle?. At friends repair shop, guy made a left into lot from a dead stop & cast axle snapped ( chinese junk? ) on nice lowed pickup.

 

I think the OP (who has only ever posted in this thread) may have been scared off.
If we were all standing around the car I'm sure we could all agree on what is required. OP please reply to say what you intend to do.

(Not involving a Subaru hopefully)

Mart.

 

Okay I read all of this and here is the latest. I went out and just tried to look at the obvious. I measured and observed. I am a carpenter turned building inspector so I am good with a tape measure and spotting things, albeit up to now I did not have the knowledge. So everything see s to measure within very small tolerances. Everything is tight, everything is basically new. So I read in this forum to make sure all of the components are not worn, I took off the drivers side shock and the rod is full of oil and doesn't seem real smooth. That will be tomorrow's test drive after new shocks installed.

 

I gleaned this little bit from an article somewhere, only tossing it in the blender because I haven't seen it here yet. I am aware most has been covered here already. ALL of the following is from that article.


"SHIMMY ELIMINATION: From a 1936 shop bulletin.... and this is a quote: “Low
speed shimmy is usually caused by under inflation or looseness of wheels, wheel
bearings, spindle bearings, tie rods, drag link, steering gear or spring
mountings.... in conjunction with too much caster or toe-in. Low speed shimmy is
often caused by the same conditions that cause high-speed tramp. Either too much
or too little may cause low speed shimmy, whereas only too little caster will
cause high speed tramp.” Notice there is no definition of what speed high or low
speed is. But they define wheel tramp as “.....synonymous with high speed
shimmy” and discusses this in terms of “....oscillation frequencies” having to do
largely with runout, balance, and toe-in. Can someone explain the difference, in
layman terms between shimmy and tramp? And their definitions? I always thought
they were the same! Caster is discussed as “....having a stabilizing effect” on
all of this.
To increase caster temporarily (like to check to see if it cures a problem),
use two rubber ball inserts on the wishbone with longer bolts. Test drive slowly
to see if this makes a difference."

 

Great thread!! On my RPU I have a basic split bone, dropped axle setup with dropped bolt on steering arms and an F-1 box with 5 inches of play at the steering wheel (box is about to be overhauled) and it drives fine except for following the road contour a bit. Even over big bumps etc it stays good. The front wheels are reversed 16'' items so the scrub point is not as good as it should be but on New Zealands back roads I have not had one issue of wobble or even a slight shimmy. Is it luck or is it all set up right? Here it is for comparison. JW

 

In reading this thread, I can't believe so many people have danced around the root cause of what's wrong with your Dodge, which is the vehicle was built too low. People seem to forget the original Ford wishbone front suspension is not simply a collection of parts but a system that was designed to be durable, cheap to manufacture, and yet work well despite being manufactured to relatively sloppy tolerances. If you look at the pictures on post# 87 you will see this vehicle uses a dropped axle which necessitated dropped steering arms so the tie rod would clear the wishbones. A dropped steering arm has two issues (1) the lower tie rod boss is now much lower than the lower spindle boss, and (2) dropped steering arms are made longer in order to maintain the same turning radius. With dropped steering arms, when you turn the wheels, you have a twisting moment at the spindle and a bending moment at the steering arm. The result is any slop in the tie rod ends or spindle bushings will be amplified. Lowering the vehicle required splitting the 'bones which required a substantial "S" bend in the pitman arm. Once again, the steering box boss and the drag link boss are no longer on the same plane so when the steering wheel is moved the pitman arm tries to bend outward and inward in addition to moving forward and back. The result is any slop in the steering bushings is amplified. Bored@Stroked (Post # 83) already covered what needs to be done with the hairpin, and why. If you want to test what I've talked about, put the front tires on a set of "grease plates" or maybe a pair of those vehicle castors, hold the steering wheel and have the biggest, strongest friend you have yank the right front wheel left and right while looking for steering component deflection. In essence, every suspension component that was modified in order to lower the vehicle increased the probability of "death wobble". The only way to eliminate your problem is to redo the steering arms, the pitman arm, and the hairpin while keeping in mind the information given in post # 112, or start looking for that Suburu.

 

Back in the 70s, Street Rodder magazine had an article on how to adapt a VW dampner /damper to eliminate DW.
My 1999 Jeep Cherokee has a damper on it . I know when it needs replaced, it goes into the DW.

 

Great comparison that helps the thread content. Do you have an accurate caster setting number?,

If not, a pic taken from the same distance, but move over to your right, showing the right backing plate from a distance, will show us the caster by looking at both of the top ford brake adjusters on that wheel.
.

 

I have no angle data but will take more pics and post. I have raised the rear of the car 3'' from when I got it and not changed the caster. I was told it was 8 degrees then so it will be a bit less now.JW

 

Dampeners are only a Band Aid on the DW problem as has just been said above on the Jeep when the Dampener wears out, the DW issue is still doing its thing and wearing it out. How many have you worn out now? JW

 

A drag link shot for now. JW