History Positive Identification of a non-registered car

I have a vintage dirt track race car with a lot of history that I believe is worth somewhere north of $10,000. After seeing a number of threads here about stolen cars, I started thinking about what would happen if my car were stolen. Say someone steals it here in Minnesota, and it is recovered in, say, Missouri. How can I prove to the authorities there that it is actually my car? I have no title or registration; heck the car doesn't even have a serial number. I contacted the Minnesota DMV, and after waiting a week, got a response from them saying that since it would not meet federal vehicle standards, they cannot issue me a title. I have a bunch of pictures of me with the car, but here are a lot of other pictures with someone else standing next to it (I like to keep the vintage racing fans happy).

Does anybody out there have an idea of what I can do to ensure that this is really my car? I don't think that this is not a rare problem, given the number of untitled race gars there must be out there. Anyone have any ideas?

 

You can take pics of course.
You can also pick several "hidden spots" on the car to engrave your SS#, name, etc. They may steal it but if it's examined closely, you or someone else will see your scratchings.
Did this on our 37 Harley. It has a serial # yes, but I put my data on the frame too. If ya take off the foot boards, etc., you will find my name & SS#.
Just an idea....

 

stamp your drivers licence number on it like a VIN number

 

Since it's not going to be registered anyway, I'd punch a serial number into it in a few places, then maybe get the local law to get you something that states it's yours. Maybe not the best way, but somebody else might think of something.

 

Create a 'serial number'.......actually a unique ID number, known to you, photographed, etc.
perhaps it should be in an obscure location, not easily noticed by miscreants.

All it takes, so far as I know, is some means of positively identifying your property, both for prosecution and reclaiming your goods. Rather than the DMV, ask the State Police what they need to make a case.

Edit: I'd also add specific unique markings to key components of the car, in case it is in pieces, or parted out, when recovered. Again, inconspicuous to the casual moron.

Ray

 

Ray,

Thanks, I don't usually like speaking to folks in uniform, but in this case, I think you may be right.

Denny

 

Is it made with a mfg frame or custom?

Even if its custom you should be able to do a special construction title, don't say " race car" say "car" may require putting some temporary lights and horn on it .. Might be easier to insure too?

 

In some states you can go "title purpose only" That gives you a title but the vehicle has no registration or plates.
Other than that, as the others said put identifying marks on it in inconspicuous spots and take photos of the marks for documentation.

 

There is a '55 Chevy in Minnesota that has my name stamped in a few choice hidden locations.
I documented every one with time stamped photos as the build was going on and sent copies to my insurance company.
When I sold the car this info went to the new owner.

 

I have done this too, plus I usually stamp my name/city/ on all parts I make

 

I wouldn't be stamping my social security number on anything.

 

There are states that will title a car and issue a state ID/VIN with very little info (I think GA, Alabama and maybe Indiana.) and other states will issue "project titles" and ID #s if you have a bill of sale. Get one of your friends to "sell" it to you. Title it in one of those states and then transfer it to MN.

Or see if you can title it as a kit car??
http://www.home-built-cord.com/Page13_MN_Reg.html

Factory Five reg in Minn
http://www.ffcars.com/forums/44-2004-roadster-archives-read-only/107262-minnesota-registration.html

Plus, doing that now will save you a lot of trouble if you ever move or sell the car.

 

The Minnesota DMV has already informed me that there is nothing they can do. I wasn't really that surprised as this is a real race car : no clutch or transmission (in/out box) and absolutely no way to be made even close to street legal. As for an "MSO" as mentioned in one of the links, good luck with that. I think "Hnstray" has the best idea; I'm going to check with the police next week. There used to be something called "Operation ID", but a google search did't turn up much. I starting to think that this may be a more widespread problem than I expected and a lot of folks in my situation may be in jeopardy. I have been in court a couple of times in property disputes, and got the distinct impression that unless there is incontrovertible proof of ownership, the courts just love to compromise. You could end up paying a thief a substantial sum for "his share" of the item.

 

I'd check with your state DMV, look into getting a bonded title...they would probably issue a VIN. I wouldn't stamp any numbers on the frame without contacting the DMV first.

 

i stamped the last four # of my s s and the last four # of my drivers lic. on the frame of my car trailer and took a pic and had a notary stamp the pic. when the trailer was stolen and found . i showed them the paper work . and they gave it back to me

 

MN, Title- Vehicle-Transfer- No Proof of Ownership
Located in Title - Vehicle > Transfer > No Proof of Ownership
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Information
When tangible proof of ownership cannot be established, and DVS does not have a record of ownership or registration, the No Proof of Ownership process must be followed.

Policies and Procedures
This procedure does not apply if there is an ownership record for the vehicle in Minnesota, or if DVS or the customer is aware of a title issued in another state.

If DVS has an ownership record for the vehicle, the title must be submitted with a complete chain of ownership. If this is not possible and the vehicle is six (6) model years or older, the customer must refer to the "defective title" bond process described below.

A foreign state registration is not acceptable proof of ownership for titling purposes. If the customer cannot present the foreign state title, the owner must follow the procedure outlined below.

When tangible proof of ownership cannot be established, and DVS has no record of the vehicle, and the customer is not aware of a title issued in another state, s/he must submit the following:

• Application to Title and Register a Motor Vehicle (PS2000)

• Bill of Sale: The seller may sign in section C of the PS2000, or sign a bill of sale that identifies the vehicle (year, make, vehicle identification number) and lists the date of sale and the buyer's name.

• Fees: The deputy should collect all appropriate sales tax, title and registration fees.
  
• Statement of Facts (PS2002): The statement must be written and signed by the seller of the vehicle and give as much information as possible regarding the history of the vehicle. It must include completed vehicle description (year, make, model, VIN), how and when the vehicle was acquired and why there is no documentary proof of ownership.
  
• Statement of Protection: The buyer must sign a statement that says "I agree to defend and protect the State of Minnesota against any and all future claims of ownership which may arise after I am issued a Minnesota title and registration card."
  
• Photos: You must submit photos showing all sides of the vehicle as well as a photo of the VIN plate or a clear, legible tracing. In the case of motorcycles, a photo of each side is needed as well as the VIN photo or a photo of the Federal Safety Sticker.
  
  • Digital, scanned color images are preferred over actual photographs.
  • Photos are not required for trailers with a gross weight of less than 6,000 pounds; however a photo of the VIN plate should be submitted.

  • The photos are used to establish a value in case a bond is required.

  ​
• Registration: In most cases a deputy registrar may issue registration. However, vehicles that do not have a VIN may not be issued plates.

** Motorcycles - do not issue license plates and registration in the following situations:

• The motorcycle is "homemade" (See section "E")

• The owner is unable to provide a frame number

• The owner indicates the frame number has been removed

• The motorcycle is a reconstructed Harley Davidson manufactured prior to 1970

​

• Bonds: The department may require the applicant to obtain a surety bond to protect the State against any possible claims of ownership. The applicant will be notified after the application is submitted as to whether the vehicle will be required to be inspected and/or bonded. A title with the notation "bond" is a negotiable (transferable) title.

"Defective Title" Bond Process

Reference: Minn. Stat. 168A.07

A “Defective Title Bond” may be provided by an applicant when s/he cannot supply the required documents or information to transfer a vehicle, and the vehicle is six model years or older.

This does not include manufactured homes, mobile homes. This cannot be used for no proof of ownership transactions.

Policies and Procedures:
When an applicant has exhausted all avenues to obtain the required documents or signatures to transfer ownership of a motor vehicle, the applicant must follow procedure outlined below:

• Determine that the vehicle age qualifies for the process. The vehicle must be six model years or older.
• The applicant must go to a deputy registrar office and provide the complete vehicle description, including vehicle identification number (VIN).
• The deputy will provide the applicant with the form, “Affidavit of Due Diligence”, the Bond Form and Instructions. The Affidavit must be completed by the applicant and notarized.
• The deputy will partially complete the Defective Title Bond form, PS2052, and calculate the bond amount by multiplying the vehicle value times 1.5. Applicant must contact an insurance agent to complete the bond form.
• When the bond form is completed, along with the required notarizations and attachments from surety company, the applicant can return to deputy registrar to complete application for title (PS2000).
• The applicant must provide photographs of the vehicle sufficient to determine its fair market value.
• The deputy will collect all appropriate sales tax, title and registration fees.

 

Rick's Garage,

Thanks for the links and all, but that won't work for me. I went through this process 2 years ago on a '66 "Homebuilt" and it went surprisingly well. This however is a different case. No Bill of Sale, no VIN or even serial number, and no lights or safety equipment. Since there isn't enough left to even conjecture what make and model it is, it would have to be registered as a current model, which is where the "meets current federal standards" comes in. This is what makes it impossible to go this way. I could make some stuff up, but I really don't want to go that way.

If the police can't give me some hints, I think "29Moonshine" has a possible scheme that worked for him.

Here is the vehicle concerned. I am sure the Minnesota DMV would be happy to issue this thing a title from this picture.

 

Can't do this ...wont do that... Your defeated be for you start ... I'd "find" a vin in the frame and register that as the corisponding sedan body as it is (34 Chevy ?)

Lights on that thing and a lexan wind screen it's no different than any other hotrod

People have registerd belly tanks and sprint cars and drove on the street, you have an actual car with an actual body , your over thinking it and talking to the wrong DMV people...AND giving them to much info .. It's just "an old car"

 

Since the ultimate purpose of this process is to ensure my legal rights if something were to happen, I don't think falsifying information is where I should start. "No different than any hotrod"? Well, the lack of a clutch or transmission puts that to rest.

I'll keep looking for solid legal method. Until then, it's in a locked storage building.

 

I know Grundy and Hagerty offer insurance for vintage competition cars (All alot of Trans-Am series cars). Fire,theft,ect... all bets are off for on track damage.

Check with them, they must have to have some way to prove owner ship in case of a claim.

 

If I put a twin turbo 540 and a Lenco in a 57 Chevy and it runs 5 sec 1/4 mile it's still a 57 Chevy , you have a 34 Chevy sedan, I see no differeance , because you have a in -out box it's no longer a Chevy sedan?

Pleanty cars are registered and not street legal ... I take the headlights out of my new truck.. And it's no longer street legal ... but it's still a Chevy truck

They register boats and atvs too

No amount of serial numbers and vin tags will deter a thief , but it would allow you to insure your 34 Chevy hot rod

 

"thirtytwo" - I think you are missing my point here, but I do give you kudos for recognizing the body as a '34 Chevrolet.

The '57 Chevy in your example still has a '57 Chevy frame, and a majority of the components. I assure you, they only thing '34 Chevrolet about this car is the body, which has been so modified, most people wouldn't recognize it. You can run a "twin turbo 540 and a Lenco in a 57 Chevy" on the street; I defy you to try to run this car without a clutch or transmission on the street. To attempt to register this as a '34 Chevy would be a travesty.

 

I think this idea has merit and I will pursue it.

 

You need to try talking to other persons at the DMV. It sounds like you spoke to one "know it all" at the DMV and accepted their answers as gods words. The vehicle can be titled. If you choose to give up and are scared of "uniforms"--too bad..

Maybe try another option with friends or family in another state who have a more cultured registration/title process for home built machines. Every state has a bonding process pretty much nowadays which allows non-titled vehicles to get documented. It costs time and money--spend some of both. And-as far as your self-appraised value of the car, that won't mean a damn thing without insurance acceptance.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

I can see some of you have never tried to do this in Minnesota with a car like this. As I said before, I am not going to start this process by falsifying information and claiming it is something it isn't. I have gotten a few useful suggestions here, which I will pursue.

BTW, I have gone through this procedure before and currently have a car I built with a Minnesota "Homebuilt" title. Talk is cheap.

 

have an OT - CT 70.....would be a nice survivor - if the previous owner hadn't etched his driver's license into every part - like every part you can see....just saying....

 

I don't think any current owners of INDY 500 winners worry about things like this. Take some photos of your self with the car pointing to your name welded to the chassis, and engine block number. Bob

 

I'm from Minnesota ... And I know how 70% of the cars are titled there

 

Some of you guys positively amaze me. I come here for looking for ways to eliminate potential legal problems, and the first thing you advise me to do is commit a fraudulent act. Don't you know that re-stamping frames or even fooling around with VIN's in any way without official sanction can cause big problems. Sheesh.

And "thirtytwo", it looks like you're not from Minnesota now, and things have changed. Also could you explain your last statement.

 

If you want to really cover your ass engrave it take photos and also take rubbings. Then put them in an envelope and mail them to yourself. Don't open the envelope. When the parts of the car are located bring your sealed envelope with you. It is along the same lines as a poor man's patent.