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Technical Intermittent no start

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 59Apachegail, May 15, 2016.

  1. 59Apachegail
    Joined: Apr 30, 2011
    Posts: 1,504

    59Apachegail
    Member
    from New York

    Hello All,

    My setup is an SBC, 12v system, lower powered 60s alternator (still using ammeter) with a push button start. Key "off" allows the stater to turn but engine won't fire by design. The key "on" provides power and the engine will run.

    Negative battery grounds to my header of #2 cyl. Positive battery goes directly to starter.

    I get intermittent start failure when the truck is cold. Key "on" Push start, ammeter just dips all the way down and no starter. To get her going I will turn the key "off" get the starter turning and turn the key "on" as the starter is spinning to get her fired.

    Same start issue when she is hot but starter won't turn until it cools.

    Battery is ok, ground to header is good, starter is new, ignition parts new.

    I should probably move my ground.

    Do I need a battery with higher CCA?
    Do I need to put a heat shield on the starter?
    Any ideas greatly appreciated
     
  2. landseaandair
    Joined: Feb 23, 2009
    Posts: 4,485

    landseaandair
    Member
    from phoenix

    Where does the power in to the start button come from?
     
  3. EZ Cool
    Joined: Nov 17, 2011
    Posts: 265

    EZ Cool
    Alliance Vendor
    from Slaton TX

    Could be that you are using too small of a wire in the start circuit. Need to have a 12 gauge wire from the start button to the solenoid. Also need a 12 gauge wire from the power source to the start button.
    Start button itself need to be rated for at least 20 amps.
     
    Atwater Mike likes this.
  4. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    I think you should move your ground at the engine, though I doubt that is the source of this problem. Also engine and/or battery should also be securely grounded to body and chassis.

    The start button and it's wiring should be verified for continuity. If that and the grounds are in order, I would suspect the solenoid or starter. The ammeter showing a heavy load suggests the current is going somewhere but not getting the intended job done.

    Ray
     

  5. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,935

    squirrel
    Member

    How old is the starter? is it covered with old hard dirty grease? Or has it been worked on in recent history?

    Just to clarify...it's not the foot pedal starter, is it?
     
  6. 59Apachegail
    Joined: Apr 30, 2011
    Posts: 1,504

    59Apachegail
    Member
    from New York

    Thanks for the replies guys!

    Landseeandair
    Power in start button comes from the ignition, ignition gets hot from battery.

    Ex cool
    Wires and button correct for application, I put new ones when I re-wired

    Ray
    I need to check if my engine is grounded, starter is grounded to body, battery ground will be moved.

    Jim
    Starter was a remanufactured about 3 years ago looks brand new (50-60) starts max. I bought it from a shop in California that does staters and alternations I replaced the original with this one to try to fix the problem.

    Foot pedal was removed when engine was upgraded to an 283 before me. There was a switch on the dash already. When I got my truck 5 years ago you helped me rewire my switch when I ran a new harness.

    This start issue was the reason I gutted and re wired the truck. I have been getting away with it but now trying to get it right. I am considering upgrading to a V8 switch and eliminating the start button all together.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2016
  7. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,935

    squirrel
    Member

    It's pretty hard to diagnose these problems over the internet...but start by making sure the battery is good, make sure all the battery connections are good, make sure the starter is good, make sure the starter switch is good, and all it's wiring is big enough and has good connections.

    You can also measure voltage at various places when it's acting up, although having a helper around when it's acting up is not easy to do!
     
    volvobrynk likes this.
  8. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 33,861

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I;d say you have a high resistance somewhere in your start wire circuit. That could be a bum connection or too small a wire but I would run the power feed to the push button directly from the battery or directly from a terminal that is fed of the battery. Then use at least a 12 gauge wire as EZ Cool suggested.
     
  9. Hollywood-East
    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
    Posts: 1,993

    Hollywood-East
    Member

    Im going to go out on a limb here, But a ground going to a header bolt could act up Seriously! Because it will expand/contract with heat... I would change that cable an locate a point farther away from a heat source...
     
  10. In addition to what has been mentioned above, check neutral safety switch, if there is one.
     
  11. If you've started it 50-60 times in 3 years, look for corrosion at the connections. Cars that sit accumulate moisture at electrical connections and they get dirty faster than a car that gets used more often.
     
    Hnstray likes this.
  12. It's always amazed me that metal touching metal can develope no electrical connection. That said, You can't really look at connections to see if they are good. I'd disconnect any connection in the circuit that you can get to and either wire brush the parts and/or hit them with a piece of sandpaper to insure that you have good electrical connections. Good luck!
     
    Atwater Mike likes this.
  13. wicarnut
    Joined: Oct 29, 2009
    Posts: 9,052

    wicarnut
    Member

    Suggestion, Sounds like starter motor to me, if you have exhaust that runs close to starter, over time the heat damages it, this happened to me 2x SBC before someone suggested I wrap pipe w/ header wrap, or theres a starter insulation kit, no problem since, but I'm a parts changer, not a Real Mechanic.
     
  14. @59Apachegail when I am using a start button I usually pull power start from the battery, ignition switches especially old ones are iffy and sometimes you don[t get full power from them. A wire from where the hot cable lands on the starter is a good source.

    I have had intermittent start problems with engines that were not grounded well to the body, IE those little woven straps that go from motor to the body. I have no idea why this is necessary but this has been something that I have noticed over the years. I have discovered that you can get the heaviest straps from trucks.

    I am sure that you have all this covered but this is something that may help someone else reading this thread.
     
    59Apachegail likes this.
  15. 59Apachegail
    Joined: Apr 30, 2011
    Posts: 1,504

    59Apachegail
    Member
    from New York

    Thanks for the input all! Let me get to work on checking this out.
     
  16. Bandit Billy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2014
    Posts: 12,286

    Bandit Billy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I just bought a couple of the woven looking straps Beaner described at NAPA over the weekend for my car. I bought the 20 inchers and paid $11 a piece for them. They are about inch and a half wide. I went bell housing bolt to a bolt I tapped in my boxed frame and another from the same bolt to the trans tail shaft. I used an ohm meter around the car last night and it seems to be very well grounded. Those straps look correct too IMO.
    upload_2016-5-16_11-39-32.png

    OP, ground the crap out of it (cheap fix) and if the problems still exists I'd go for the starter solenoid or starter itself.
     
    Atwater Mike likes this.
  17. olscrounger
    Joined: Feb 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,770

    olscrounger
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    might want to put one from the frame bolt or bell housing to the body as well.
     
    Hnstray and Bandit Billy like this.
  18. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 11,625

    Atwater Mike
    Member

    A bud of mine (also on here) built a very neat little Coupe, 283, stick, started right up when finished, ran well, he warmed it up and came over to another bud's for Pizza & beer.
    Car sat and got thoroughly admired by all, but when he was ready to leave there was no starter.
    Everything hooked up, I had him turn on the headlamps. Bright. Hmmm...
    Tried the starter with lights on, dimmed the lights, no starter.
    We looked around, I insisted it was a ground problem...he was distressed, his wife was waiting, he HAD to go!
    I said, "Let's push start him," so we did. Short shove 10 feet, pop the clutch in second...Vroom!

    He drove off, smooth as silk.
    Called me an hour later, he had the ground cable to the frame rail secured soundly to a freshly powder coated surface! Fixed in minutes...
     
  19. Bandit Billy
    Joined: Sep 16, 2014
    Posts: 12,286

    Bandit Billy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    oldscrounger is absolutely correct on that body ground. Good call!
     

    Attached Files:

  20. olscrounger
    Joined: Feb 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,770

    olscrounger
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I may go overboard but I run a 1/0 from the battery neg post to the bell housing then 1/0 from the bell housing to the frame then two ground straps from the frame to the body-all with star washers and a bit of NO-OX compound. Overkill maybe but no ground issues.
     
    Hnstray likes this.
  21. 59Apachegail
    Joined: Apr 30, 2011
    Posts: 1,504

    59Apachegail
    Member
    from New York

    Thanks again all for the replies, some quick updates:

    My battery is weak, load testing at 10.6 volts and 200 cold cranking amps before and after charging it. Not too bad for a 7 year old battery.

    My starter to body ground strap is fugly and the engine to body ground strap doesn't exist.
    Before:
    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1463855843.125345.jpg
    After:
    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1463867660.797731.jpg

    Got my grimey hands on a correct nos v8 starter for lunch money.
    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1463855927.246761.jpg

    I will need a battery, engine ground strap. Then will hit the assembly manual to find out where the engine ground strap gets installed and how to correctly install the new switch.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2016
  22. Hotrodmyk
    Joined: Jan 7, 2011
    Posts: 2,302

    Hotrodmyk
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Northwest HAMBers

    I had the same problem on my 283. It was nothing more than the solenoid.
     
  23. Turnaround
    Joined: Dec 21, 2007
    Posts: 64

    Turnaround
    Member

    I used to see as much as 40 amp draw on the sixties era Chevy solenoids. The GM starters, cranking a decent small block, would pull around 150-170 amps. 12-1 compression big blocks could pull 400 amps. It wasn't unusual to have pistons (Elgin, Jahns, poor designed cast aluminum pistons) that expanded too much when hot, and pretty much seized in their cylinders. Put a handheld ammeter next to both the 12 gauge (minimum size) wire to the solenoid, and to the battery cable, and see how many amps you are drawing. If the wires are too small, they will get hot, as will the wire terminal ends. Overall, your problem sounds like a bad starter. Either loose armature bushing or jamming against the flywheel ring gear. A torque wrench should read about 70 pounds as you turn the engine using the harmonic balancer bolt. That would prove that the pistons are not seizing from heat expansion and lack of cylinder clearance.
     
    Atwater Mike likes this.
  24. Turnaround
    Joined: Dec 21, 2007
    Posts: 64

    Turnaround
    Member

    The starter solenoids had a copper ring that contacted the copper bolts holding the battery cable. You could clean that ring, or turn it over, or just replace the solenoid to fix problems similar to yours.
     
    Hotrodmyk likes this.
  25. 59Apachegail
    Joined: Apr 30, 2011
    Posts: 1,504

    59Apachegail
    Member
    from New York

    Thanks guys, these are some more good things to check.

    I have a quick update, new battery installed, negative lead grounded to the firewall. I haven't had time to get the engine ground or v8 ignition switch done yet. I don't have copper screws for the grounds should I get them?
     
  26. Dan Timberlake
    Joined: Apr 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,530

    Dan Timberlake
    Member

    A few voltage drop tests while cranking would positively identify which connections (if any) are dirty and if any cables are undersized.

    First I'd buy a cheap digital multimeter with a few DC voltage scales. (And a remote starter switch, and a few test leads with alligator clips to assist with testing).
    Then I'd measure the voltage right at the battery terminals ( not the battery cable terminals ) with the key off, and then while cranking.
    If the voltage is less than 12.6 or so at rest, and drops to 9.6 or less when cranking, then the battery is not fully charged.

    When the battery voltage stays high enough while cranking, I'd measure the "voltage drop" at various points in the positive and ground circuits while cranking.
    More than 0.2 volt or so while cranking indicates a problem with a connection or a cable. Proper "voltage drop" testing in steps along each circuit will make it crystal clear what component(s) or connection(s) need cleaning or even replacement.
    20 minutes later, after I had those tests complete, the findings would determine what the next steps should be.

    http://ep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/yhst-4436...arter-testing-safety-voltage-drop-testing.pdf

    Voltage drop tests are traditional too.
    http://pontiac.oldcarmanualproject....al/12-Electrical and Instruments/image17.html

    http://pontiac.oldcarmanualproject....al/12-Electrical and Instruments/image18.html

    http://pontiac.oldcarmanualproject....al/12-Electrical and Instruments/image19.html
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016
    59Apachegail likes this.
  27. Bearing Burner
    Joined: Mar 2, 2009
    Posts: 1,107

    Bearing Burner
    Member
    from W. MA

    If engine turns over ok with switch off and won't with switch on I would say problem is in switch. Your power, ground, wire and pushbutton are all the same. the only difference is in the position of ignition switch.
     
  28. 59Apachegail
    Joined: Apr 30, 2011
    Posts: 1,504

    59Apachegail
    Member
    from New York

    Thank again for the replies guys. Just a small victory dance, truck started right up. In the past 6 years I have had it I can honestly say it never turned over that strong before. I will continue on replacing the ignition switch, adding the extra ground and the copper screws. I like to test incrementally so I know what was a fix and what was an improvement. I will report back with the rest of the updates.
     
  29. 59Apachegail
    Joined: Apr 30, 2011
    Posts: 1,504

    59Apachegail
    Member
    from New York

    Update...
    I started installing the new ignition switch.

    I have on the switch according to the manual
    BATT- Thick red power
    BATT- Empty
    SOL - Purple from starter
    IGN - Double green wires
    IGN - Brown and Pink wires
    ACC - Two pink accy wires

    My question now is wiring the starter, I am using an original replacement wiring harness with correct wire colors.

    I have from the 6cyl setup battery + and purple on power post. I have a black wire on one solenoid lead. I had a wire that went from the other side of the solenoid to my start button.

    The question is do I need to move the purple wire from power post on the starter to the side the lead went from solenoid to power button?
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2016
  30. d2_willys
    Joined: Sep 8, 2007
    Posts: 4,285

    d2_willys
    Member
    from Kansas

    Sounds as if your wiring is not correct. Get that corrected. My opinion is that you might have a bad solenoid or the solenoid terminals are not wired correctly. The ammeter supplies voltage to the ignition switch, therefore the start terminal is providing current to solenoid thru ammeter and ignition switch. (This is where the major current draw would exist) The starter gets it's power directly from the battery, with the solenoid connecting battery power to the starter windings. It does not go thru the ammeter.
     

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