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Technical Dana 23 and Dana Brake Interchange?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by patmanta, May 3, 2016.

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  1. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,872

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    So, I DRUG HOME an EAST COAST T MODIFIED BUILT W/ WWII JEEP PARTS over the weekend and I'm having trouble searching out what brakes will fit on this rear end.

    They're small, they might be the 9" drums, and they're trashed. The drums are cracked and the backing plates are rusted out.

    This means I need to replace everything if I want to run this rear on this car (it looks good enough to do so thusfar).

    What I need to know is, what backing plates and drums are a direct fit replacement or upgrade for a Dana 23 rear end? I haven't found much info despite my searching since the 23 is a bit obscure. I just want to know what fits with no fuss.

    I've seen indications that seem to indicate CJ-2 & CJ-3 rear brakes may fit but I wasn't able to really tell for sure. I've also seen references to Henry J rear ends & Merc brakes but I still don't have an answer.
     
  2. Zerk
    Joined: May 26, 2005
    Posts: 1,418

    Zerk
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    Studebaker used Dana/Spicer 23 and 44 in the '50s and '60s. I would expect the 23 under Champions and six cylinder cars. As for brakes and backing plates interchange, I've no idea, but it's a place to start.
     
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  3. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,941

    squirrel
    Member

    I"d start by looking at axle flange gaskets in an old Fel Pro (or other gasket company) catalog. If it uses the same gasket, then the backing plate should fit. Axles...that's another story...but I think there are a few companies making one piece axles for old Jeeps.
     
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  4. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
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    from Quincy, IL

    Many years ago (early '70s) I completely built a '46 CJ2 with many upgrades. As I recall, I bolted on late model CJ5 brakes. At the time it was common swap and complete kits were available, no mods needed. The axle housing flanges were the same. The axles in that CJ2 were, I believe, Dana/Spicer 25 front, Dana/Spicer 27 rear. I think the CJ5 and up were 30 or 35 axles.

    Ray
     
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  5. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,872

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Thanks guys! We're getting somewhere!

    Thanks, I'll expand my search a bit. Most used brake setups tend to be listed by make/model rather than the rear end they were for (except Ford 9" for some reason). This will help.

    I've gotta pull the wheels and trashed drums off this weekend and get a look at what's there. It looked like the Dana 44 I had a few years back but I remember the 44 having larger tubes and I'd imagine a wider pattern.

    Yeah, I believe the 25/27/30 were all based on the 23. I'm pretty sure the Dana 23 went away almost immediately after the war but I have found mention of them (Henry J) after that.

    If the 25/27/30 & 35 flanges are the same and you did a bolt-on CJ5 job on a 1946 CJ2, which I've seen interchange with mentioned in catalogs for 41-45, things are looking up!

    Now as far as the hubs and their backspacing, that's going to be the next obstacle i think.
     
  6. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,941

    squirrel
    Member

    out of curiosity, I looked up some WWII jeep stuff...this drawing shows the rear being a full floater. Is this what your axle looks like?

    [​IMG]
     
  7. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,872

    patmanta
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    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Essentially, yes. But my hubs / drums don't look like that.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  8. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,941

    squirrel
    Member

    Looks like you dont really have a WWII rear in there. You'll have to get things apart and see what you have. The parts place I got that pic from, Midwest, shows the MB, GPW, and CJ2 all having the floating axle setup like I pictured, and the later jeeps have the 44 rear.

    But I could be wrong.
     
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  9. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    It may easier and less money to acquire a different rear axle assembly.

    Ray
     
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  10. bobbytnm
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,668

    bobbytnm
    Member

    I have a 1967 Jeepster Commando. Its has a Dana 30 rear and Dana 23 front. The Jeepsters came with both the 9" drums and 10" drums. I imagine that the jeeps of the same era were the same so it shouldn't be too horrible to find some larger drums. Squirrel made a great suggestion about looking at the axle flange gaskets to see what is comparable.

    I was looking for brake upgrades for my Jeepster. After I realized I had the 10" drums and after I found decent info about upgrading my Dana 23 front to disc brakes with late model GM parts I sort of put off searching for drum upgrades
    Good luck
    Bobby
     
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  11. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
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    Hnstray
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    from Quincy, IL

    It is possible early CJ2's had full floaters, since they were produced immediately after the war, but I've never seen one. Dana 44's were used in the AMC V8 powered CJ's in the '70's, but I don't think they were in 4 cylinder and V6 models. Also 44's were widely used in the big J Series wagons and pickups. Later Wrangler and Cherokees were equipped with Dana 35 rears for the vast majority from mid 80's through early 90's and Dana 44 only rarely.

    Ray
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2016
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  12. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
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    patmanta
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    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Yeah, I'm not sure either yet. I just didn't think 23 rears were used much past the war. I'm going to try to get at least one wheel and drum off this weekend while I'm working on my main project. That's why I've got this one in the driveway; I can swipe at it as I go when I've already got a tool in-hand.

    EDIT: though this one could have been from an ambulance which did not have the full floaters from what I'm seeing.

    This is plan B. I'd like to keep this rear on the car if it's viable and I can put working brakes back on it without too much investment. BUT I do have a 47 Ford Truck rear that's open drive and I do have a set of Ford juice brakes for it.

    I don't so much need to upgrade as replace because they're broken really. Anything that will just pop right on there and work without further modification to the rear is what I'm looking for.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2016
  13. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
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    patmanta
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    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Here's some up close and crusty pictures of the backing plates:

    20160504_163525.jpg 20160504_163532.jpg
     
  14. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,941

    squirrel
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    I bet that's the same flange as a Dana 44, so newer Jeep brakes would probably fit.
     
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  15. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
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    patmanta
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    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    I sure hope so! I've been shopping around and it's slim pickings for brakes. I might end up having to buy a rear end just to get the brakes off of it for a reasonable price :eek:

    There's a 35 for sale near me for short-ish money but the drums look wrong for the wheels and spindles on mine. If any local HAMBers have a set of rear Dana brakes they're tripping over, let me know!

    I had a 44 that I sold a couple years ago for like, $50.
     
  16. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,587

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    This is a close match, except for brackets.
    This a M27 or aka Volvos version of the rear.
    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1462458636.161490.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1462458643.994721.jpg
    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1462458657.862221.jpg

    It's 5 x 4.5
    Come as 3.78 or 4.11.
    They are good, I can be beaten to death. But holds up 200hp Volvo turbo mills, before they go to the 1030 Volvo rear that's a Dana 30, but they are with discs.
     
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  17. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,587

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    Just as a heads up;

    http://m.ebay.com/itm/262405886373?fits=Make:Volvo|Model:122

    1967-68 P1800
    1967-1970 122-123-221-222
    And 1967 210
    Has same rear axle, after that they go to discs and 5x 4.25 inch (5x108 metric)
    But it should be possible with the right mixing and matching to make a better stronger 1030 or 1031 (DANA 30). With older drums, and the right bolt pattern.
    The 1031 is beefed up and often came with a locker diff.
    Came in a lot of 164, 240 or 260 (242, 244 and 245, first number is series (1 is knee action, 2 McPherson frontend), next is cylinders, last number is doors). Available 1973 too 1992 makes it find able.
     
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  18. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,872

    patmanta
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    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Thanks! it certainly helps knowing more models that used these rears. Often brakes are listed by make and model but seem to be similar or same.

    That listing is a bit of a trek for me and I'm trying to avoid buying a whole rear for tje brakes. There's a 35 near me that I'm holding off on for that reason.
     
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  19. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,587

    volvobrynk
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    from Denmark

    I understand why, but now you have a guy for measurements. I can give you some, next time I'm at the shop.

    Somethings are easier to do on the spot. So you don't need to put up with a drawing made by a three year old with hand written notes of random measurements all over the place :)
     
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  20. i would find a modern jeep with a complete dana rear end, with scrap so low they should be cheap!
     
  21. PCJ
    Joined: Mar 19, 2010
    Posts: 26

    PCJ
    Member
    from Austin, Tx

    The late CJ series jeeps (76-85) used a model 20 rear axle with two piece axle shafts and 5x5.5 bolt pattern and the 80-85 axles being wider. The wranglers (86-06) used the dana 35 and a few of the newer ones the dana 44 but all 5x4.5 bolt pattern and the newer wranglers use the dana 35 or dana 44 but with a 5x5 bolt pattern. Just a little extra info to help you not make any unnecessary trips.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  22. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,872

    patmanta
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    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    I know I can get a whole rear, I just do not want yet another rear end to deal with, just the brakes. If it comes to a rear swap I've got a 47 Ford truck rear and brakes I can pull from my pile. I'd just rather keep this car as "original" as I can reasonably do.
     
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  23. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
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    from Quincy, IL

    The reasons I suggested considering a complete rear end was only partly due to the brake condition. The ring and pinion appear in the photo to be pretty badly rusted. If they are that rusty, I can imagine other internal parts are compromised as well. As always, your car, your choice....but a complete rear end might solve a lot of problems and be less work and less money in the bargain.

    Ray
     
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  24. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
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    patmanta
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    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    The R&P are actually clean metal from what I saw. What looks like rust is actually dust/impurities with oil caked to it. The pictures don't really show it is all. I swiped at it with a finger and it was smooth and gray underneath. Otherwise I'd be talking about scrapping it and just running the Ford stuff I've got.

    I'm going to try and get the wheels and brakes off this weekend while I'm working on my main build. Then I'll be able to make an informed decision on what's going on.
     
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  25. JOECOOL
    Joined: Jan 13, 2004
    Posts: 2,771

    JOECOOL
    Member

    I have a Dana that I assume is a 44, has 4.27 ratio and a posi. Someone has adapted disc brakes though, it is the right width for my 57 Chevy and the spring pads are correct also. I'm going with a 57 pontiac so I would sell it cheap if you could use it . DSCN0679.JPG DSCN0676.JPG
     
  26. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,872

    patmanta
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    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Thanks for the offer but I only need replacement drums and plates, not another rear. I'm trying to get a list of what fits these rears documented here.
     
  27. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,872

    patmanta
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    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Snapped off 3 wheel studs and got one wheel off. I'm having trouble getting the hub nut off because the pin is corroded, broke in half, and just not moving (any tips?).

    [​IMG]

    These look to be a 10" setup.

    [​IMG]
     
  28. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,941

    squirrel
    Member

    if you can cut the cotter pin off flush on one end, you might be able to use a pin punch to drive it out...or you might end up trying to drill it. Either way, what is usually a small easy job will take you a while. I hope you have a stout puller to get the hub off the axle.
     
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  29. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,872

    patmanta
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    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    I'll try that. I can nip them off, I just wanted to leave them alone until I asked the HAMB for advice. I haven't gotten stuck this bad with one of these before.

    My neighbor located some old NAPA hub pullers a while back and sold them to me cheap, so hopefully once I get these pins out I'll have something that'll work. I think they rely on the studs though so it might be a bit of a trick to get done (pry bars, hammer). This drum is also cracked.
     
  30. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,941

    squirrel
    Member

    this is the way it's done...

    [​IMG]

    you hit the "wrench" with a big friggin hammer
     
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