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Technical Ansen style pedal- help needed

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by RodNoc, Mar 10, 2016.

  1. RodNoc
    Joined: Mar 15, 2009
    Posts: 93

    RodNoc
    Member
    from Kelso, WA

    20160219_165509.jpg So I built a set of Ansen style swing pedals to use the 60-62 chevy clutch/master cylinder combo. My problem is that getting a 6:1 pedal ratio that can perform a full stroke of the master cylinder bore puts the pedal pads 12" or so from the firewall where the assembly mounts.

    Does this seem typical for swing pedals?

    It only leaves 11" from the pedals to the front of the seat. Which would be damn near impossibly to drive. From pictures I've viewed of others seem to have less distance and a shorter stroke.

    Do people build or use swing pedals that could bottom out on the firewall before actually reaching the full stroke of the master? Im at a loss here

    Please ignore the area that kicks forward. It will be cut straight down to save a few inches.
     
  2. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 5,217

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    Those are awfully long pedals !
    dave
     
  3. You can reduce the ratio some, it will just make a little more muscle required to operate. Chances are you are stopping a lighter vehicle, so the increased effort will be offset by the lighter weight.
     
  4. RodNoc
    Joined: Mar 15, 2009
    Posts: 93

    RodNoc
    Member
    from Kelso, WA

    After the bend at the bottom is cut off they are 14 inches long. Does anyone have a functioning set they can measuse the pedal length for me? Say from the pivot to the pad and pivot to firewall.
     

  5. krylon32
    Joined: Jan 29, 2006
    Posts: 9,397

    krylon32
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Nebraska
    1. Central Nebraska H.A.M.B.

    Take a look at Hot Rod Pro's thread on building his 5 window. He uses longer pedals than the standard Ansen and he's done this before so I assume it works as he's a big dude and needs room to maneuver.
     
  6. RodNoc
    Joined: Mar 15, 2009
    Posts: 93

    RodNoc
    Member
    from Kelso, WA

    I dont doubt that it would function properly. Im having space problems and I dont have any physical pedals to reference. I think my 36 cab is smaller inside then a 5w or model A. I want to try my hardest to avoid going to an automatic but I need to have something i can actually drive.
     
  7. How do these numbers compare to your set up. Shows about a 5-1/2 to 1 ratio. Copied this off the hamb, supposed to be Ansen measurements.
    582700-pedals.jpg
     
  8. Rodnoc, just went thru this same design thing this winter on my 31 coupe. Getting full throw on the arms was a bit of a challenge. I mocked everything up with cardboard and played with many different designs to get it right. In my case I was working around the cowl steering hoop and box. I ended up with a greater distance between the firewall and the pivot point of the arms than yours appears to be. I then arched the arms. You can see that in the attached pic. My assmb. is attached to the hoop for strength and it works out great. I can measure the distance from the firewall to the pedals this weekend if needed.
    100_5350.JPG
     
  9. RodNoc
    Joined: Mar 15, 2009
    Posts: 93

    RodNoc
    Member
    from Kelso, WA

    Any and all measurements are very helpful.

    As far as the ansen drawing, mine is very close. My pivot is 5" from firewall not 3 3/4 and my pedal length is 14" not 12 7/8. The master cylinder i have has very close to a 1 3/4" stroke to bottom out. I have a 5.9:1 ratio which takes 10.5" of swing to fully depress. Adding in the width of the pedal arm and pad it just keeps coming closer to my seat. I have roughly 24" from the firewall to the front of my seat.

    Is this just too small of a space?

    What kind of leg room are you guys working with?
     
  10. I have a NOS set of ansen pedels like that in my shop. I can dig them out this weekend and take some measurments for you if you want, just to confirm the measurements in the drawing.
     
  11. RodNoc
    Joined: Mar 15, 2009
    Posts: 93

    RodNoc
    Member
    from Kelso, WA

    That would be greatly appreciated.
     
  12. phat rat
    Joined: Mar 18, 2001
    Posts: 4,920

    phat rat
    Member

    RodNoc, if I'm understanding what you wrote correctly, you're figuring pedal ratio wrong. It's not how far from the firewall the pivot point is. It's how far from pivot point of the pedal assembly to the master cyl. rod pivot point. You have way more than a 5.9 to 1 ratio there. Just guessing that to be about 2" that would give you 7 to 1 ratio.
     
  13. RodNoc
    Joined: Mar 15, 2009
    Posts: 93

    RodNoc
    Member
    from Kelso, WA

    The pivot to the push rod is 2.375" and my pedal is 14" from the pivot to the pad. That should make for 1:5.894. A 1.75" stroke at the pushrod to bottom out the master multiplied by 5.894 gives me 10.3 which is really close to the real world swing of the actual pedal.

    The more I look at it I think I can build a recess in the firewall for the pedal arms to swing into. That should gain 3.5-4" and thin the width of the pedal a bit to change when it will contact the firewall also. Maybe a new or modified seat to get more leg room.

    It should be possible, but it has to be a little comfortable
     
  14. Here are a couple of pictures of some pieces I made that are a direct copy of a set of Ansen pedals. We have put quite a few sets of these type pedals in As, '32s and '34s, without any swing problems. Tightest was in a '34 truck with a flat firewall; but that still worked OK. From your measurements, it still seems your pedal is too long, that couple inches will add quite a bit of travel if you consider both directions (depressed and released) of motion.
    P3110002.JPG P3110003.JPG P3110004.JPG P3110005.JPG
     
  15. Russco
    Joined: Nov 27, 2005
    Posts: 4,327

    Russco
    Member
    from Central IL

    I have a set of Wilwood pedals in my coupe that are 6.25-1 ratio. They look to be considerably shorter than the set you have pictured above.
     
  16. RodNoc
    Joined: Mar 15, 2009
    Posts: 93

    RodNoc
    Member
    from Kelso, WA

    So Rich B it looks like from your measurements that you would have a roughly 5:1 pedal ratio. Ive been trying to stay as close to 6:1 as possible from what I've read on the hamb but I have no actual experience with this setup.

    I suppose the image is deceiving because of the angle. The top pivot is only 14" away from the pedal pad. Unfortunately the math just isnt in my favor with this short cab.

    Unless when people set there pedals up they only are concerned with the usable throw and not with being able to fully bottom out M/C
     
  17. You always need to set the pedals up for full travel, which you will need most of for the clutch anyway. Concerning the higher pedal ratio, I never heard any mention of excessive pedal pressure problems on any of the pedal set-ups we used. I have a single hanging pedal built to these dimensions in my roadster pushing a '40 style master, the pedal pressure is pretty easy.
     
  18. RodNoc
    Joined: Mar 15, 2009
    Posts: 93

    RodNoc
    Member
    from Kelso, WA

    Thats good to know. Armed with that info I can alter the overall pedal length, pushrod mounts and length and most likely the pivot point as well.

    There may be hope yet.
     
    AB Normal likes this.
  19. I measured my set up this afternoon. The set back from the firewall to the center of the pivot is 5 5/8, arms are 16 inches overall to the center of the pivot, 13 1/2 to the center of the yokes and the ends are 11 inches to the firewall. Best I could do in my application with the cowl setup. Still some tweeking to do as far as final alignment but they should work out fine. Shot some pics to give you a visual:
    100_5361.JPG 100_5360.JPG
    I based my design on a 64 Chev brake pedal assembly and robbed some parts from it for the assembly fwiw.
     
  20. RodNoc
    Joined: Mar 15, 2009
    Posts: 93

    RodNoc
    Member
    from Kelso, WA

    As for size I bet mine is comparable to that. Then imagine if the front of the seat was 12" from the pedals. Pretty cramped.

    I think im going to try and bring my pivot in to 3 3/4" as opposed to 5" from the firewall and reduce my pedal length down to 11 1/2" from 14". That should gain 3-4" and maybe a small pocket for the pedals to swing into at the bottom of the firewall should gain a few more.

    Probably going to be a few days before I can get out to the garage but I greatly appreciate everyone's guidance and input. When I find a successful combination I will post it.
     
  21. 3 3/4 is about where I started with my first design built out of glued up cardboard. I made several attempts at arms in cardboard to get the travel thing to work all to no avail. Now my only choice would be to shorten the arms slightly when we get to that point with the seat and my big ass (6'1")in the car!
     
  22. RodNoc
    Joined: Mar 15, 2009
    Posts: 93

    RodNoc
    Member
    from Kelso, WA

    I know how you feel. I thought all was going well until I tried to actually sit inside with all of these components that I thought would work. They'll do their job but I wont be able to do mine. Being 6' in a thirties cab doesnt allow much leg room. Funny enough with a 6" chop and 3.5" channel headroom is fine.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2016
  23. RodNoc
    Joined: Mar 15, 2009
    Posts: 93

    RodNoc
    Member
    from Kelso, WA

    Here are my redesigned pedal assembly. They now use 70-71 camaro pedals which are 12.5" long.[​IMG]

    I have also decided to make room in the firewall for the pedals to swing into. Like the stock firewall had before I changed it.[​IMG]

    I just love doing things over because of my inexperience. I should gain 4" or so of leg room this way.
     

    Attached Files:

  24. RodNoc
    Joined: Mar 15, 2009
    Posts: 93

    RodNoc
    Member
    from Kelso, WA

    One more
    [​IMG]

    I have a pair of round vintique ford waffle pedals that will most likely get installed on the pedal arms. I am going to wait til its all installed before placing the pads on.
    [​IMG]

    Sent from my SM-N910P using H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  25. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    Good plan on waiting, on a 3 pedal car with tight floor/tunnel.

    I just tweaked my 60-62 truck swing pedals because there was simply no decent place for a gas pedal. And, my son is much taller, bigger shoes, and I'm trying to make the car user friendly.

    I'll take a pic or two today. I ended up with small teardrop pads mounted vertical instead of my first try with horizontal pads. That change left me the room I needed for a gas pedal.

    One thing on your upper pedal pivot: Can those two pedals move sideways? or do you have/or plan on thin tubing spacers in between?

    last thing: in case you did not know; the Chevy pedals were originally reversed, so the master guts need swapping to use non-reversed pedals like yours. The clutch bore does not have the residual valve and large rubber washer, it needs to be on the brake bore.
    .

    .
     
    Atwater Mike likes this.
  26. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 11,625

    Atwater Mike
    Member

    @F&J, I recalled this when I read it, ran into it around '78, in a '34 pickup while installing a SBF w/Mustang 4 speed. Good point in mentioning...
     
  27. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    Mike; there have been some threads on hamb about the swapping of guts on Ansen style non-revered pedals. It was said that if you look into the reservoirs of the clutch and brake, you will see that one side does not have the same port holes drilled into the bore for fluid.

    I have always used Chevy reversed pedals, not Ansen style, so I have no experience on how that might affect normal operation. Maybe somebody will post up what they know on those ports?

    One more thing on the OP's pedal cluster pic above: There definitely needs to be an adjustable pair of pedal stops to prevent the pushrods from dropping out of the bores. Stops are also needed, so that there can be twin return springs, to pull the rods away from the pistons to get the freeplay settings.

    .
     
  28. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,222

    F&J
    Member

    Here are the two parts of the residual valve that will be in the brake bore, not the clutch.
    The black washer is rubber, and it is the seat for the metal residual valve. The rubber washer is the first thing put into an empty bore; it sits flat in the deep end of the bore.

    the valve sits on the washer as shown.

    then the long spring fits onto that dome part of the valve. you can see the rust mark where the spring sits.
    DSCN0579.JPG DSCN0580.JPG

    here is my 60 pedal setup modified with small pads. Relocated 60-66 Chevy truck brake light switch. And a piece of angle iron with two welded nuts for the adjustable stops..with lock nut on each.
    DSCN0581.JPG




    Under dash pic:
    DSCN0582.JPG

    You can see one OEM Chevy return spring, and it hooks to the pedal with an extension on the top of pedal. You can weld an extension on yours if that is where you want the spring.

    you can also change where you want the brake switch, by welding a similar extension, either below the pivot or above it.
     
  29. mcsfabrication
    Joined: Nov 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,057

    mcsfabrication
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Alternate master cylinder to use is from an International Scout. The internals of the master match the pedals. Clutch for clutch, brakes for brake pedal. Identical bolt pattern and piston sizes.
     
    AB Normal likes this.
  30. RodNoc
    Joined: Mar 15, 2009
    Posts: 93

    RodNoc
    Member
    from Kelso, WA

    Just a quick response, yes I did remove the brake residual valve and the shiny silver between the pedals is a cut tube to act as spacers. Eventually I will figure out brake light switch, neutral safety switch and pedal stops with springs. Thanks for the tips

    Sent from my SM-N910P using H.A.M.B. mobile app
     

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