History '63 times GP, I had a dream

I had a dream early this morning, that I was back in the early sixties at a road-race. When I woke up, I was filled with despair, thinking about what has happened to the North American road racing scene since I was a child growing up in the sixties, and going to Westwood. At that time the future looked so bright, now road-racing as those of us from that time know it is almost non-existant.
The first thing I did when I got up was search youtube for "Times Grand Prix" and found this movie of Dave Mcdonalds monumental drive.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/I4Uv8iimrKA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Land use has essentially destroyed North American road racing. While spiralling land values have had somewhat of an impact on circle-track and drag racing, they have virtually wiped out traditional road courses. We have, what, four traditional road courses left in North America? In the sixties, road racing was at least as popular in North America as drag racing and circle track, now, relative to what it was in the sixties at least, it is almost extinct. Man, I miss it.

 

There's waaay more than 4 traditional road courses left in N. America. The problem is that most don't meet the safety standards that the pro assn. require. Therefore they mostly just host club races which are unadvertised and almost unknown to the general public.

 

There are tons of road courses in the US, I don't know about Canada. Many of them do club racing or private racing, but I don't think it's necessarily because they don't meet safety standards - rather, they don't have the budget to work with the national race series.

Road racing has always had a problem in the US because it's not as spectator friendly as drag racing or circle track - for those types of racing, the spectators can sit in the bleachers and see the whole thing, while in most cases you can't do that at road racing courses.

 

There are TONS of traditional road courses North America?? Ok, I could be wrong, but its more likely we have a different definition of what constitutes a traditional road course. I was figuring there was maybe more than four, hence the question mark, but tons?
Name some. We have Rivers Edge here in greater Vancouver, its an add-on at the end of a drag strip, that IS NOT a traditional road course in my books.
I can name six, and that took some thinking. Lime Rock, Laguna Seca, Road Atlanta, Mosport, Kent and VIR.
If there are more, and there may be, lets hear about them. Tons? Really? Do tell. If you are right, it'll cheer me up.

 

90 miles from me is the most famous and quite old ... Watkins Glen

 

We've got Watkins Glenn, here in NY. They don't get much more famous than that! It all boils down to economics, which owners are going to take a chance and spend the money. Road racing needs a Bruton Smith type!-MIKE

Fuck, I type too slow

 

Watkins Glen, Road America, Sonoma, Miller Motorsports Park, Portland Int., and these are major venues. I can think of at least a half dozen lesser known tracks that are dedicated road courses also.

 

Yeah,type faster

 

I didnt know Watkins Glenn was still operational. Maybe I need to get out more... Thats seven. Keep 'em coming, guys. Rootie Kazootie, I would love to hear about some of the more obscure facilities?

 

High Plains Raceway, (Colo.) Pueblo motorsports park (Colo.) Hallet (Ok.) Barber (Ga.)

 

http://speedwaysonline.com/tracks/category/road-courses/

 

Gratten in Michigan,mid ohio, putnum park Indiana,Blackhawk ill,& there are many more.

 

I took a look at Miller, didnt know about it, nice facility, but it skirts pretty close to the edge of what I would call a "traditional road course".
Its a bit like defining porn, but to my way of thinking, a traditional road course follows the natural contours of the land, and should include changes in elevation. I guess in Utah, pool table flat IS the natural contours of the land, but not really what I had in mind.

 

Another major is Mid Ohio.

 

About as traditional as you can get is Sebring, which would make a pool table jelouse

 

Well, for once, I'm happy to be proven wrong, there really are a lot more tracks out there than I realized, even if some of the tracks that have been brought up might fall on the very ragged edge of my somewhat subjective definition of "traditional" road course, there are a lot more tracks out there than I was thinking of.

 

Well now hold on, wasn't Sebring originally an airport? While airport courses in and of themselves are a part of North American road racing history, to my way of thinking, they dont fall under what I would consider "traditional" road courses, and never really did. Tracks like Sebring (And locally, Abbotsford) were a common topic of discussion around our place when I was growing up, and even at the time, got short-shrift from the "purists" (that would be my dad, who raced bikes, and most of his friends), expressly because they DIDN'T have the characteristics I mentioned above.

 

I may not ALWAYS be right, but when i am, I sure as hell like to make sure everybody knows it...

http://www.sebringraceway.com/pdfs/Records/history/Chrono.pdf

 

Still is, when there not racing, but try telling Dan Gurney, Stirling Moss et-al that it ain't traditional

 

While not exactly what you might be thinking Sports Car Club of America events page.
http://www.scca.com/events/

I haven't been to an event in years, but Giants Dispair hill climb in Pennsylvania is among the oldest such things in the country.

 

They would have probably agreed, not sure about Gurney, Stirling Moss would have for sure.

While we are at it, I kind of envisioned this thread going in a different direction, more about waxing nostalgic about the glory days of North American road racing.
Not trying to kill the conversation about my colossal blunder about the lack of traditional road-race courses, but throwing up a second path this thread can go down, as the race-track thing is going to run out of steam.

 

I know what you're talking about.... the days of 'homebuilts', or the semi-hot-rods like Cobras, Listers, Scarabs, Chaparrals, Cheetahs, etc. But the same thing happened here as in most other forms of motorsports; the factories got involved and the level of sophistication went up to the point that a small builder simply couldn't compete anymore. Add in the fact that this was never a very spectator or TV 'friendly' sport and when the factories left, the money left with them.

Unfortunately, the 'sophistication' genie is long out of the bottle, so the days of the home-grown 'exotics' is gone for good and the excitement you remember is gone with it.

 

I'll agree with that, what killed those activitys in nz was the the rise of 7th day shopping and the government allowing stores to be open on sundays,as up untill the late 1980s nothing was open on sundays, and proberbly rising public liabilty insurances. in auckland we used to have lots of street cuircuts car and m/c and theyve all dissappeared as the population has increased as well.plus all it takes these days is one person to cry to the council and its all over.

 

I have the good fortune of being able to "wax nostalgic" at as many as five weekends a year at the greatest traditional road course in America......Road America in Elkhart Lake, Wi......when they run a variety of vintage events with awesome examples of road race cars from the 1920's to the 1990's. There is nothing to compare to it......take it from a confirmed "cheesehead"

 

Elkhart Lake is what I think of as a traditional road course. Color me green. I dont want to be dismissive of Rivers Edge, I'm glad its there, but it's just not the same. I grew up with Westwood, theres just no comparision. I actually just found this on Youtube.
Its long and wordy, but it tells the story better than I ever could.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/qKzlF5MNsWk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

God, I miss that place. Its all upscale homes now. I cant even drive up there without getting depressed. What adds insult to injury is that several of the roads up there are named for parts of the track.

 

That's what housing developments do, they name things after what they destroyed. We have a fairly new road track in Shelton, WA where I live it is called The Ridge Motorsports Park.
http://ridgemotorsportspark.com/track-info/track-map/

 

Hey George, you ask all the rigth questions. And I like like the answers you get!

Are you telling me you have a race league where cars could turn left AND rigth overseas.
Are thought you was fast in a straigth line and the left bender kings of racing.
Even Dan gurney had to mix up the game a go to Europe to race left and right.

Okay all kidding aside, I like those road racer guys, and there cars.

I remember there was a couple of cool threads on here about road racing and some of the cars.
There was also a great story of a guy (maybe a texan) buying an all new early Falcon and going road racing and drove it from track to track?

I really love story's like that. I like this thread, and since the first unofficial rule of the HAMB is; pics or it never happend!
And the second rule is: Since when is one picture enough?!

 

^^^^^^^^^ man was that a cool track.

I know this is an old thread George, but you really need to get out more.

You got that right George, in case anybody is interested; Google Westwood Racing Circuit, pretty interesting history.

Until just now, I had forgotten about my introduction to roadracing; It was around 1967 and I was only 13 years old, had a friend that had an older relative that roadraced, I think a Triumph, not sure now, but they took me with them one time to a race in Newport on the Oregon coast.
This was at the Newport airport (very small, even today), what was most memorable for me was because it was an active airstrip, they had to stop the race and move all the hay bales off the track layout to let a big plane land.
I remember standing on the side of the track and the planes' wing going over our heads as it slowly came to a stop.
Thanks George, that was a fun "way back" trip down memory lane.
BTW, you might want to get your passport updated, there is a pretty good event at PIR
every summer for vintage roadracing, I think it is part of the annual Rose Cup race.

 

Many great trips to Mid-Ohio, thanks for the memory slap, George. Being mostly into drag & roundy racing at the time, I first tagged along with a couple of buddies, out of curiosity sometime back in the mid 70s. Instant fan, and many trips followed. Got to see some of the greats in their prime.

 

Barber Motorsports Park near B'ham Al has held some vintage auto racing in the past, as well as vintage motorcycle racing for the past 11 years.