Brown lipe transmission info

cerial · Nov 28, 2012

I bought what I believe is a brown lipe aux trans off ebay. It has 3/1, direct, and .72/1 ratios. I was told it was rebuilt 3,000 miles ago and was in a one ton truck. The only number I have is 5117 stamped on one of the covers.

Any info on what this came out of or any links that would help would be great. I never had or heard of a brownie with a 3/1 ratio so I jumped on it. The gears may be modified for all I know. I simply want a source for parts such as bearings and seals for when they go out.

I will post picts later.

snaptwo · Nov 28, 2012

Brownies as they are known as were an add on or aux. . They were fairly universal in app. I overhauled on for a '58 Jimmie 1 ton wrecker years ago ,pretty simple unit as I recall. Ours was a direct/OD unit but we had another over/under/direct in a 1 1/2 ton Chevy. wrecker that was a bear to shift and noisy as hell. Seems to me , one could turn the whole box end for end to obtain a under/direct combo. That little Jimmie had been been updated with a 389 poncho,4 speed granny trans+ the Brownie and was a real winner on the highway as it would pull a full size as fast as one dared to go.

eugene vik · Nov 28, 2012

at a bearing supply store or a NAPA is measure and fit
my guess thats 30 to 40 years old at least

most good parts stores can find bearings and seals for most anything nowdays

JohnEvans · Nov 28, 2012

Forget using it in a car as they are too large ,and the smallest is over 150 lbs. Those smaller ones have been out of production for over 50 years and parts are NA other than bearings and seals.

Normbc9 · Nov 28, 2012

For the expense you could purchase and install a Hydraulic Gear Vendors overdrive with the manual kick down. I have three. All in cars and all double the gears I have. If i'm on a hill and feel like it I can downshift a push of a button. I'll bet by the time the machine work, additional crossmembers and other tasks were done the GV may be about 2/3rds of the costs of what you'd experience with the old Brown-Lipe box. Plus about 1/4th the weight too.
Normbc9

Ole don · Nov 28, 2012

If you have a Brownie that is noisy, you may have the wrong lube in it. They want 90/140, or straight 140. They are shifted without the clutch, so that part is easy.
If you are putting it in something light, Normbc9 has great advice.

willymakeit · Nov 28, 2012

Normbc9 said: ↑

For the expense you could purchase and install a Hydraulic Gear Vendors overdrive with the manual kick down. I have three. All in cars and all double the gears I have. If i'm on a hill and feel like it I can downshift a push of a button. I'll bet by the time the machine work, additional crossmembers and other tasks were done the GV may be about 2/3rds of the costs of what you'd experience with the old Brown-Lipe box. Plus about 1/4th the weight too.
Normbc9
Click to expand...

Do you have any experience with the under/over?
Thats what Im contemplating putting in my F100. Would like to have the best of both worlds.

cerial · Dec 1, 2012

Yes I have used them before. They are called a crash box for a reason. It is best to choose a gear in the brownie and avoid shifting if you can.

Here is the little beast it is like 12" long and weighs 90+ pounds. The good old cast stuff.

Normbc a GV unit is not rated high enough to handle the 2900+ lbs of torque this little case can handle. Right now my engine only makes 380 pounds at 3200rpm mated to a low ratio 465. But I have a 468 sitting in the shed and just found a 472 which I may snag for the heck of it.
I will run the 383 at first with my 4.10's. I see the rear end quickly getting some gears in the mid 5's to give better pickup. If at that point I feel the brownie can live up to the additional 100+ torque I will drop in one of the lower revving big blocks.

The largest reason I chose this is that it is divorced. This is rear engine facing rearward. I have a custom made scs transfer case being built right now to reverse the direction of the rotation so everything moves in the correct direction. The transfer case which is nothing more then 2 spur gears and 2 shafts with a .75/1 ratio giving me a second od which reduces torque to the pinion. In the event the brown lipe needs servicing (or does happen to grenade) I will simply install my longer propeller shaft and be on my way.

If the 2900 lbs sounds high know that when the brownie is in low the torque is tripled. I have had the transfer case made to handle 500 lbs of engine torque or almost 10,000 lbs in a worst case scenario like pulling a boat up a steep grade. And it can handle that and more the guys at scs are great btw and highly recommended. But, I needed to reduce the torque to keep the pinion from shearing and avoid expensive drive shafts. Installing a smaller output gear to give a 25% reduction in torque in the transfer case was a easy way to keep from needing some specialty drive shafts.

With the brownie in direct or removed I have 4.91, 2.68, 1.25 and.75 ratios. Should shift right around 30, then up to 60 and top out in the 90's.

With the brownie installed and in the .72 high those ratios drop to a 3.53, 1.93, .92, and .54. 1st gear actually becomes somewhat useable.

Lets see 2.68(2nd in direct), 1.93(2nd in high), .92(3rd high)and .54(4th high).
With 5.xx gears could give what kind of acceleration (on pump gas)?

Realistically though I will not shift the brownie on the fly because the time to pull over and drop it into high is only a few seconds. It is just nice to know that I can if I want to.

This is my cheap and reliable approach to a t56 that can be rebuilt for less then a few hundred bucks.

Nothing wrong with a t56 just the thing is has it's issues and I would rather bench rebuild a 465 then send a t56 to a specialty shop just so I can put a little more power through it.

Light, well the body is light The drive train and axles are not though especially If I go with one of the BB engines which I gave room for already.

I want my cake and eat it to. By using the low ratio 465 and brownie I end up with a cheap, easy to fix(or replace), reliable, and tough drive-train that feels happy pulling a 60's truck on trailer as well as cruising down the freeway at 80 mph. Sure it is loud but that's a early warning system in my book.

Well I have rambled on enough. You can see how having a brownie is a easy way to get overdrive. In my case the cheap way to get a .52/1 ratio. If you look around they usually go for around 1k. But they are loud no doubt about that. Of course, big engines, open headers, and cabs with the weight cut out are loud also.

I still am wondering what one I have just so I have a idea when I can expect it to say I better not install this on there. But who knows what this is and the stuff can be rebuilt/remade if it does go as long as I keep most of the pieces it will be alright even if it does let go.

JohnEvans · Dec 1, 2012

You sure that is a 3 speed? It looks like a Dana/Spicer model 2021 made in the 60s and those were low/direct or by turning the box 180* would be direct/OD. Be VERY careful of what oil you put in it as all of the ones that use needle bearings under the main shaft gears MUST use 50W ,either engine oil or straight mineral oil. I sold parts for these things for years. Also they normally were very quite as they had helical gears. Pull that cover and lets see the guts.Dana-Spicer bought Blown-Lipe some time in the 40s-early 50s.

cerial · Dec 2, 2012

Think I found out what I have. It looks a lot like this:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1110475-watson-aux-in-a-dent.html

He has some internal pictures on here
http://forums.aths.org/PrintTopic140626.aspx

According to the data plate on that one I "may" have a model 39 m1 or maybe a 31. I will need to spin it around again and double check the ratios as I may have been over zealous the first time I checked.

JohnEvans · Dec 2, 2012

OK looking at the pics it doesn't look like you have needle bearings on the main shaft gears so 90W would be OK. I'm curious as to whether or not the gears are straight or helical. 2 shift rods would = 3 speed. Other than bearings-seals parts will be pretty much unobtainium.

cerial · Dec 2, 2012

I will be in New York for a few weeks. But, when I return for the holidays I will pull the cover off and snap some pictures.

cerial · Dec 2, 2012

The parts might be made of unobtainium. But, once I know what I have I can have "replacement" parts machined out of equal or better materials.
Still knowing what I have will let me keep a eye out for another one to use as parts. That way if this one does grenade I will have more then just a handful of gear's for the machinist to work with.
If this is a 3/1 low like I believe it is not the common 2/1 and I can not find another. I will simply drop it off at a machine shop and have them copy this with newer stronger grade steel. Of course my pocket book is trying to avoid this route as I can see it costing 5-7 times as much as finding another 40+ year old unit.

george5121 · Dec 20, 2012

cerial said: ↑

Yes I have used them before. They are called a crash box for a reason. It is best to choose a gear in the brownie and avoid shifting if you can.

Here is the little beast it is like 12" long and weighs 90+ pounds. The good old cast stuff.

Normbc a GV unit is not rated high enough to handle the 2900+ lbs of torque this little case can handle. Right now my engine only makes 380 pounds at 3200rpm mated to a low ratio 465. But I have a 468 sitting in the shed and just found a 472 which I may snag for the heck of it.
I will run the 383 at first with my 4.10's. I see the rear end quickly getting some gears in the mid 5's to give better pickup. If at that point I feel the brownie can live up to the additional 100+ torque I will drop in one of the lower revving big blocks.

The largest reason I chose this is that it is divorced. This is rear engine facing rearward. I have a custom made scs transfer case being built right now to reverse the direction of the rotation so everything moves in the correct direction. The transfer case which is nothing more then 2 spur gears and 2 shafts with a .75/1 ratio giving me a second od which reduces torque to the pinion. In the event the brown lipe needs servicing (or does happen to grenade) I will simply install my longer propeller shaft and be on my way.

If the 2900 lbs sounds high know that when the brownie is in low the torque is tripled. I have had the transfer case made to handle 500 lbs of engine torque or almost 10,000 lbs in a worst case scenario like pulling a boat up a steep grade. And it can handle that and more the guys at scs are great btw and highly recommended. But, I needed to reduce the torque to keep the pinion from shearing and avoid expensive drive shafts. Installing a smaller output gear to give a 25% reduction in torque in the transfer case was a easy way to keep from needing some specialty drive shafts.

With the brownie in direct or removed I have 4.91, 2.68, 1.25 and.75 ratios. Should shift right around 30, then up to 60 and top out in the 90's.

With the brownie installed and in the .72 high those ratios drop to a 3.53, 1.93, .92, and .54. 1st gear actually becomes somewhat useable.

Lets see 2.68(2nd in direct), 1.93(2nd in high), .92(3rd high)and .54(4th high).
With 5.xx gears could give what kind of acceleration (on pump gas)?

Realistically though I will not shift the brownie on the fly because the time to pull over and drop it into high is only a few seconds. It is just nice to know that I can if I want to.

This is my cheap and reliable approach to a t56 that can be rebuilt for less then a few hundred bucks.

Nothing wrong with a t56 just the thing is has it's issues and I would rather bench rebuild a 465 then send a t56 to a specialty shop just so I can put a little more power through it.

Light, well the body is light The drive train and axles are not though especially If I go with one of the BB engines which I gave room for already.

I want my cake and eat it to. By using the low ratio 465 and brownie I end up with a cheap, easy to fix(or replace), reliable, and tough drive-train that feels happy pulling a 60's truck on trailer as well as cruising down the freeway at 80 mph. Sure it is loud but that's a early warning system in my book.

Well I have rambled on enough. You can see how having a brownie is a easy way to get overdrive. In my case the cheap way to get a .52/1 ratio. If you look around they usually go for around 1k. But they are loud no doubt about that. Of course, big engines, open headers, and cabs with the weight cut out are loud also.

I still am wondering what one I have just so I have a idea when I can expect it to say I better not install this on there. But who knows what this is and the stuff can be rebuilt/remade if it does go as long as I keep most of the pieces it will be alright even if it does let go.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I am missing something
The transmission you are working with is an SM465 and the brownie has a .72od?

And you are adding a .75 and comming up with a double od.
Sounds sweet until you try to use it.

My 292 6 banger with the SM465 and a spicer 5831 have never met a driveline that can handle the low end torque. A stock pickup driveline cannot handle 13:1 under a load.
When your drive shaft comes through the floor and slams the center console into the roof of the cab it will make a beliver out of you very quickly.

You are going to try 4:10 and possibly mid 5s? That achieves a lot of balls on the low end with nothing more. I had a similar thought. With the Sm465, spicer 5831, and 4:10s with 285/16 tires I was in OD at anything above 35mph.

I found it all interesting. Normal driving without applying high rates of torque the overdrive seem a good deal. But in the end its all bad, just an interesting learning experience.

My end result; 1980 1 ton weighing 5800 pounds, 292 inline 6, SM465, spicer 5831 w/.73od, 3:73 and 285/16 tires equals 75MPH at 2300RPM and 9MPG. 15MPG if I do not use OD and stay between 60 and 65.

I have had people try to explain it to me but I don't understand all the science behind it. GM gasoline engines are a very poor choice for use with OD. It will slow the engine down and perform amazingly quieter but the OD becomes a gas hog.

If you search the HAMB as well as other sites I believe you will find the same as I have. The only people who seem to really benefit from the use of auxiliary transmissions are those with old low power engines or later ford pickups with diesels. The ford diesel one ton with a 5 speed and auxilliary has more versatile use than any small truck out there. They can churn out nearly as much work as a C60 chevy, climb many a mountain trail, offer a desecent ride, and deliver 20MPG or better. I considered one several years ago until I got to the $40,000 price tag.

My next project is just a simple 1/2 ton chevy with a clark 5 speed. It's nearly identicle to the SM465 but has .80 od. Parts are somewhat easy to get and a monkey with a rubber mallet and a pair of snap ring pliars can rebuild one.

cerial · Sep 5, 2013

I can not get this thing to shift. I don't know if It was dropped while I was away or what. But I can not move the levers to move at all.

So, now you get to see the internals.

I broke one of the inspection covers and peeked inside I will break the Main one tomorrow and have some pictures.

Does anyone have a idea on how to get whats stuck back unstuck?

cerial · Sep 6, 2013

george5121 said: ↑

Perhaps I am missing something
The transmission you are working with is an SM465 and the brownie has a .72od?

And you are adding a .75 and comming up with a double od.
Sounds sweet until you try to use it.

My 292 6 banger with the SM465 and a spicer 5831 have never met a driveline that can handle the low end torque. A stock pickup driveline cannot handle 13:1 under a load.
When your drive shaft comes through the floor and slams the center console into the roof of the cab it will make a beliver out of you very quickly.

You are going to try 4:10 and possibly mid 5s? That achieves a lot of balls on the low end with nothing more. I had a similar thought. With the Sm465, spicer 5831, and 4:10s with 285/16 tires I was in OD at anything above 35mph.

I found it all interesting. Normal driving without applying high rates of torque the overdrive seem a good deal. But in the end its all bad, just an interesting learning experience.

My end result; 1980 1 ton weighing 5800 pounds, 292 inline 6, SM465, spicer 5831 w/.73od, 3:73 and 285/16 tires equals 75MPH at 2300RPM and 9MPG. 15MPG if I do not use OD and stay between 60 and 65.

I have had people try to explain it to me but I don't understand all the science behind it. GM gasoline engines are a very poor choice for use with OD. It will slow the engine down and perform amazingly quieter but the OD becomes a gas hog.

If you search the HAMB as well as other sites I believe you will find the same as I have. The only people who seem to really benefit from the use of auxiliary transmissions are those with old low power engines or later ford pickups with diesels. The ford diesel one ton with a 5 speed and auxilliary has more versatile use than any small truck out there. They can churn out nearly as much work as a C60 chevy, climb many a mountain trail, offer a desecent ride, and deliver 20MPG or better. I considered one several years ago until I got to the $40,000 price tag.

My next project is just a simple 1/2 ton chevy with a clark 5 speed. It's nearly identicle to the SM465 but has .80 od. Parts are somewhat easy to get and a monkey with a rubber mallet and a pair of snap ring pliars can rebuild one.
Click to expand...

What it comes down to is where your power curve is.
I know the 472 I am using makes power from 1600 to 3000. Anything over 3500 and I risk floating the valves. Anything below 1000 and I risk hurting a rod. With that in mind I came up with these 3 examples of shift methods and the results. Note that between 18mph to 62mph I can leave the brown lipe In direct and just shift between 3rd and 4th for easy "around town" cruising. This is where this pig will spend most of it's time and maintaining the easy forward/back shifting is a goal of this thing.

 Practical shift (requires double shift) Best performance/mileage
0000rpm.00mph.Gear2M.17mph3000rpm
1750rpm14mph.Gear2H.24mph3000rpm
1500rpm18mph.Gear3M.36mph3000rpm
1750rpm29mph.Gear3H.50mph3000rpm
1750rpm36mph. Gear4M.62mph3000rpm
2000rpm57mph. Gear4H.85Mph3000rpm
Cruise 71 @2500rpm in 4H

Lazy shift Light Lipe(4high only) High revs low recovery 2/3. Bad performance/mileage
0000rpm00mph.Gear2M.19mph3250rpm
1250rpm15mph.Gear3M.36mph3000rpm
1500rpm31mph.Gear4M.62mph3000rpm
2000rpm57mph.Gear4H.85Mph3000rpm
Cruise 71 @2500rpm in 4H

Very Lazy shift Fat Lipe( all in high)Worst performance 2/3 shift bad on engine
0000rpm.00mph.Gear1H.17mph3000rpm
1500rpm.12mph.Gear2H.28mph3500rpm
1250rpm.21mph.Gear3H.50mph3000
1500rpm.43mph.Gear4H.85mph3000rpm
Cruise 71 @2500rpm in 4H


The 10.26 gearing with the fixed .75/1 awd case gives me a axle ratio of 7.69. Adding the tire difference to a 28"=.52 now giving me a 4.06 ratio. Now for the 7000 weight vs the 5000lbs =.71 giving me a ratio of 2.9. This all means it will accelerate about the same as the Caddy the engine came out of. I expect a 0-60 at around 14 seconds which is not to bad for something this heavy. Mileage will depend on my foot and what method I use at the time. I expect between 7 to 16 mpg realistically and am alright with those numbers.

As for the U-joints and breaking. The joints are big and like everything else overbuilt for this application lets just leave it at that.

cerial · Sep 6, 2013

Internal Pictures.

It is a matter of simple spur gears. Here is the low side

Here is the high side

The gears look great except for one. It is the one in the far left under the sliding rod and is missing a small piece around a 32nd.

There are two bolts that old down the rods(for shipping I guess). I loosed those bolts and the rods slide easily. That's the good news the bad news is that it is no where near 3/1. Just ran it again and the rough ratios are .7something/1, 1/1 and 1.6to 1. This is actually good for on road letting me use the Low ratio. I will do the math again to find the best ratios. Off road it may be a issue that will limit my tire size.

ratrodrodder · Nov 17, 2015

Ever find a source for parts? I'm working on a much earlier Brown-Lipe (c1916!) and trying to find a new/replacement output flange...

scrapiron · Nov 17, 2015

ratrodrodder said: ↑

Ever find a source for parts? I'm working on a much earlier Brown-Lipe (c1916!) and trying to find a new/replacement output flange...
Click to expand...

Go to JUST OLD TRUCKS.com,,,,,,there is some reference to the flanges in a current discussion.
search Members trucks, White 28.

cerial · Mar 3, 2019

Revisiting this thread.

So I got a non H.A.M.B friendly fuel injected engine today.

Makes around 280 ft/lbs around 1500 and peaks around 330 around 4000 in very mild form. There was a 305 v6 that I was thinking about using. But this other engine has room to grow for a lot cheaper and parts are far easier to find so my wallet wins on that one. I believe I can get around 330@1500 and 400 around 4000 with a few small things. But I see using this thing between 1500 and 2500 the most. The truck weighs in at around 5000 and is a 73-87 body style.

Going to run a sm465 behind the engine so I picked up a late 70's sm465/np205 combo a few weeks back.

The transmission looked good and I was thinking they were rebuilt so I tore them apart today and sure enough the 205 has been rebuilt.with a new steel coupler with very little to no wear.

The 5531 was used in the 450 &470 series GMC which I am thinking had a 302 inline putting out lets call it 270ft/lbs around 1500 so I am not putting to much more into the old girl then it was designed for.

Still I don't want to put the thing behind the 205 and double that input torque and hey why not use that low for off road use and hey while I am at it lets replace that 10 spline with a 35 spline 2wd unit to eliminate that weak link.

Simple stuff the brownie in the middle between the transmission and transfer case.

So I dug out the brownie and compared.
Turns out the input on the brownie flange is 1410 so that will bolt right up to the 1410 output of the 2wd sm465.

But how do I make a 10 spline married into a divorced that will then be married with the brownie?

Pulled the 10 spline coupler and set it up to the 205. I can make a input cover with a seal. Basically as complicated as making a timing cover so that will work for that end.The bearings hold the shaft and the coupler will just ride on grease like a propeller shaft

Then I took the same coupler and moved it over to the brownie. The splines are freaking close as heck between the 10 spline brownies output and the 205's input.

BUT
It looks like someone pressed this end piece onto the brownies shaft

That's not good.
Now I would like to remove this end piece and just run the coupler on that 10 spline brownie right to the 10 spline 205. But I need to seal the back somehow.

I am thinking I can pull that output off then machine the inside to accept the 10 spline coupler then slide that coupler over the brownies output. This would be a press fit with that cast coupler just serving to seal the back of that brownie at that point.

Seems like it would work and would mean the brownie and the 205 could be perfectly aligned easily once I made a plate and bracket connecting /aligning them perfectly.

But there is the unknown about that output and if it does anything else like act as a oil sling or retain any bearing or such.
I don't want to pull the thing off and find find out some retainer moved or dropped.

Seeking any possible exploded views of knowledge on anyone that has tore one of these apart to know if pulling that flange or making that flange "floating" is going to drastically mess with this brownie.

Now Plan B is to just use that coupler and put it inside that flange end piece centering it with a ball bearing and then weld a flange around it to match up with the brownies end piece.

But I really do not like that spline engagement and would like to work at sliding that coupler into the brownie's 10 spline shaft.

Seeking any advise on if pulling that rear flange is going to loosen up anything or not.

[/QUOTE]

BJR · Mar 3, 2019

This is all very interesting, but what does this have to do with traditional hot rodding?

cerial · Mar 4, 2019

Looking for internal info or rebuilding info on the brown lipe made from early 1900's to the 60's making old trucks move faster.

cerial · Mar 4, 2019

After finding this thread full of great tech;
http://forum.aths.org/PrintTopic140626.aspx

I believe I have a 50xx or 51xx series Brown Lipe(h.s.Watson). Note the 5057 cast into the case.

It shares the same case with the low rails as the Model 31-39 But I think someone "swapped in" some straight cut gears 5831 gears because after checking several times the ratios are
1.52/1
1/1
.72/1
Or maybe this model came with the straight cut gears but I do have side and exploded views thanks to that thread. I have spent the last 3 hours shifting and looking and moving it there are no needles to speak of and the gears look like new with no chips or anything.

I need to replace the shift deterrent springs as they are way to firm and I need to almost have the bolts out completely to shift this thing easily.
But it does shift easily once those springs have almost no pressure on them.

Very happy I am a bit closer at finding what I have and where the bearings and everything is within this case.

Going to pull that rear flange off and inspect a bit more to see if I can get away deleting that flange and running a seal with a smaller inside diameter so I can run that coupler right off the shaft.

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