Helping a friend with a '52 Pontiac with a straight 8 engine, still running the six volt system. He was having a problem with the starter acting like a small block Chevy hot start issue. Starter not kicking in or dragging badly. He replaced the solenoid, installed a brand new 6v battery and used #1 welding cable with swadged connectors. He cleaned the ground connection down to bare metal and put it all back together but has the same old problem. This morning we took the starter to an old time starter/alternator shop to be checked. They found nothing wrong and then asked what kind of battery cable he was using. When he told them about the #1 fine wire welding cable the guy said that the problem was that the cable was too big and combined with the fine wire wasn't doing the job. He then suggested using smaller gauge, larger strand cable. Now I'll admit my electrical knowledge is limited but this flies in the face of everything I know about the subject....how could there be too little resistance? Anybody heard of this or have any thoughts on the subject. TIA
You will probably find that the guy at the repair shop is incorrect. I fought an SBC starter til I was blue in the face and it always checked out just fine, until I pulled it apart myself and found a cracked field. Not to say that the starter isn't just peachy. Another thing that will make one drag is being times way to slow, timed slow is as bad as timed fast.
I also believe that you'll find the guy wrong. Bench testing a starter freewheeling and having it crank an engine under load are 2 very different things.
There are a number of things that can make a starter turn slow. Too little resistance on the battery cables is not one of them. I'm suggesting you get a second electrical opinion. Norm
Find a different auto electric shop. The first guy doesn't know what he is talking about. Probably misdiagnosed the starter too.
If anything, the cables are too small. 6 volt requires more current than 12 volt. I'd go with #00 welding cable or connect 12 volt to the starter.
Smaller and more of copper "strands" = more amperage capability...".that shop guy is f. Ing nuts.....also 6 volt starters work great on 12 volts, just let it cool off between attempts If having difficulty getting engine to fire...
I agree. Install a 00 gauge wire. Your starter solenoid could also have a connection problem or be going bad. Check that. Double check your grounds. Body to engine. Engine to frame and body to frame.
Can't cost too much to have the starter rebuilt can it? I mean, in addition to sound advice provided above. I paid $60 to have it done this summer.
Correct, the cable cannot be too large, at least regarding current handling. It may be too large to physically fit the application, but it cannot be too large for the load, or the wires too fine. That the guy would say that is a huge red flag that he doesn't know WTF he's talking about. Move on, find another electrical shop, this guy can't be trusted.
As a followup on this saga, we went back to the original shop and picked up the starter. We asked specifically about the cables just to make sure we weren't misunderstanding what he was saying. He restated that the fine diameter wire in welding cable was more electrically resistant! He recommended that we get smaller diameter cables that were "battery cables" with larger diameter individual strands. We then went to a second shop in the area (we later found out that the guy in the second shop was the brother in law of the guy at the first shop). He told us the same story about finer strand cable being more resistant! By this time my BS meter was pegged. We gave up and went home, when we arrived I used my friends VOM to measure the resistance of the welding cable and a smaller diameter traditional cable......guess what, the welding cable measure about 25% lower resistance. Who knew, I guess those six years in high school finally paid off and I really did know what I was talking about. The starter is being rebuilt as we speak so we'll see what that turns up. Hopefully it'll have a happy ending.
A series of voltage drop tests while cranking will very likely make it perfectly clear if there is excessive resistance in either the ground or positive circuit, and where it is. This how GM said to do it in 1948. http://buick.oldcarmanualproject.co...hop manual/10-Electrical Systems/image18.html Measuring while cranking is a far more convenient method than finding and using a carbon pile. http://www.maniacelectricmotors.com/chstsycivote.html
Well, he's semi-right. A single fine strand will have more resistance than a larger one, but where you have hundreds of strands compared to 30 or less, well duh.... There's also something called 'skin effect', which is where a single large conductor won't carry as much current as the equivalent cross-sectional area of multiple smaller conductors. This is one reason you don't see one-strand wire in any sizes larger than #4 (and that size is rare).
Steve, I agree with your point about a single strand of wire of course. My understanding of the situation is that electricity flows along the surface of the conductor (wire). More surface area equates to a larger, and less resistant, path. Whichever style of wire has the greater "skin" area available will be superior for the purpose. The guys at these two shops apparently know how to remove & replace parts to rebuild a starter but theory seems to a little weak.
Resistance in a circuit produces heat. A defective or overloaded cable will get hot when you pull significant amps through ith after you've been trying to crank on it, the cables are the problem. Also check simple but often overlooked stuff like cleaning battery terminals and making sure the ground cable to engine block connection is tight.
"Skin effect" is for AC, not DC. Car Batteries supply DC to a starter. This claims the "skin" is about 5/16" deep for 60 Hz ( US house power). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect So a single "strand" of wire about 5/8" diameter is as good as a finer strand for DC, or house current. The relatively high frequencies of audio signals makes the best choice of speaker wire pretty complicated. http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html
He's nuts. Arc welding takes as much amperage or more as what your starter does. They use those cables for a reason. For starter cables you don't need the flexibility but the difference between many fine strands, and a few larger strands, is not going to make a significant difference in power to the starter.
I have been this route with 6 volt systems before. Like everyone else says, you need 00 cables. Also the voltage test while cranking is important. What is the available voltage at every point in the starting circuit, starting at the battery. One problem I have had with larger displacement engines is lack of cold cranking capacity of the battery. The typical Group 1 battery is only about 525 CCA, and is way too small. The Group 2 batteries are no better. You need a Group 4 battery to have any hope of providing enough starting speed.
Just a couple of ideas, first replace your battery cables with larger ones, second, try to find a center tap 12V battery or install 2 6V batterys in a series/parallel configuration and run the starter on 12V and the rest of the electrical system on the 6V system.. You may also want to add a 12V Generator or alternator. ...................................... Jack
ok, all good advice, but believe me, what im going to tell you will fix it... guarenteed!..... you ready? Run a nice beefy cable from the negative battery terminal all the way to one of the mounting bolts on the starter.... run one to the body from the negative terminal too..... trust me, cleaning off the paint under the body mount short cables and using the car body as a means of the earth signal getting back to the battery is a major flaw...... trust me do it!..... you need a designated earth lead back to the battery.......
Heh heh.... Yes, skin effect is a AC phenomena. But once you go outside of a purely resistive DC circuit, you have some 'AC' components present in a DC circuit. DC motors produce CEMF which affects the circuit, although generally not enough to matter. But in a low-voltage, high-current circuit, any additional resistance can have an effect, particularly if the circuit is marginal. As to analog audio cables, the late Julian Hirsch of Stereo Review had a long-standing challenge to any 'specialty' cable manufacturer to prove in an actual double-blind listening test (not 'laboratory' results) that their cable had an actual improved audible difference, backing his challenge with a $10,000 bond if they could prove it. He never had to pay off. The few that tried failed, the rest stayed away in droves.... The proliferation of 'Specialty' cables today has far more to do with profit margins and advertising revenue than actual performance.
I love electricity; it's always good for an argument. It kinda reminds me of grammar class where there was a rule for every thing EXCEPT for whatever I was doing.
The trouble is there ARE rules for electricity (ohms law, etc). Those who understand them, get problems solved. Those who don't, argue.
I call these audio claims the 'Dog Whistle' effect. If you're a dog or have the same hearing range as a dog, the whistle works fine. If you don't, the whistle doesn't work.... LOL
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