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Technical Tire life

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by tubman, Aug 22, 2015.

  1. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 6,916

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Here is something I posted on another forum. I think it would be of interest to all car enthusiasts : I just had a thought. It would be nice if one of the major tire companies (or even Coker) would do some research into changing the composition of the rubber they use in their tires that would trade off wear characteristics for longer effective life. I know I would gladly pay a premium for a tire that had a 50% increase in rubber life even if I had to accept a 50% decrease in tread life. There has to be enough of a market out there for this sort of thing that it should be worthwhile. I for one am sick and tired of taking off and discarding tires that look excellent and have 90% of their tread left just because they are 8 to 10 years old.

    This has to appeal across all car enthusiasts; what do you guys think? Comments by chemists or others that know about this sort of thing will be especially appreciated.
     
    dan c likes this.
  2. Mercman4life
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 208

    Mercman4life
    Member

    Just did the same thing to mine. The tires look brand new , but were about 20 years old. Had to change them just to feel safe.
     
  3. 3wLarry
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 12,804

    3wLarry
    Member Emeritus
    from Owasso, Ok

    if your tires have 90% of their tread left after 8-10 years...you need to be driving them more!
     
  4. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    Unfortunately, tires are "consumables" ....one way or another. Interesting idea/question though.
    Looking forward to authoritative replies.

    In my case, I've had tires age out with little use for having put them on early in the build.........a case of "optimism over reality" :(

    Ray
     
    lothiandon1940 likes this.

  5. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 6,916

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Sorry Larry, but it's a character flaw I have. Too many cars; which of course makes the problem that much worse.
     
    lothiandon1940 likes this.
  6. Ever wonder where all of that rubber dust goes to as millions of tires wear out every year?:confused:
     
    40fordtudor likes this.
  7. So don't throw them away..... LOL.

    I've brought this up here before; these 'tire expiration' times that are now being thrown around by the manufacturers and tire retailers are mostly to panic people into replacing perfectly serviceable tires while protecting the manufacturers from possible lawsuits, with a few exceptions. If you live in a sunbelt state, then you need to heed these. If you live somewhere with cooler average temperatures, the 'effects' they demonstrated act much slower. All this came out of the Ford Explorer/Firestone debacle; the various manufacturers and the DOT all did studies to see if tire age was a factor in this. They determined that 6 years was the 'safe' maximum before rubber degrading became an issue. What they didn't tell you was that these tests were performed in Phoenix Arizona, the city with the highest average daily temps in the US and the 'worst case' scenario. Dig into the report a bit, and you find that UV exposure and ambient heat are the two main killers, again these were found to be at their worst in Phoenix. Dig a little deeper and you'll find that the rate of degradation is exponential ; in other words, a 10% change in ambient temp doesn't translate into a 10% increase or decrease in aging. It's plainly stated in the report that a 10C (about 19F) change in temp will change the rate by 100%. Yep, that's not a typo. So if you live somewhere where the average temps are 10C lower than Phoenix, your tires age only half as fast. So that '6 year' time is now 12 years. It should also be noted that the tires they tested were off of 'drivers'; cars that likely sat outside most of the time, were driven daily, and probably received no more than average care. If the vehicle is stored indoors out of the sun and in cooler temps, ageing is reduced.

    Right here is where guys will come on and give antidotal stories ('Well, I had a set go bad blah blah blah'). So I'll note that the DOT (after reviewing accident reports from all 50 states involving tire failures for this study) was unable to find even one documentable instance of tire age as being the cause of an accident. The vast majority of failures were underinflation and/or overloading.

    Ultimately, tire safety is up to you. If examination of the tire shows weather checking/cracking, bulges, then you should probably replace. Hell, I've had near-new tires fail; but I've also had tires last well beyond their 'magic' dates with no issues.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2015
    clem, Moselli and WDobos like this.
  8. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    Steve............it would be helpful if you could provide an easily accessed link or other reference to the study you are quoting so we can follow your recommendation to read it firsthand.

    Ray
     
  9. If you really want to"Get into the weeds"on the subject, grab a couple of beers and read the attached pdf and draw your own conclusion ......
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    Well, THAT was quick ! :D

    Ray
     
  11. Canuck
    Joined: Jan 4, 2002
    Posts: 1,104

    Canuck
    Member

    The tire manufacturers have found the cure for tires that have to be replaced every 6 to 10 years yet still look great.

    These tires (Michelin LTX-A/T 2 265/70R17 ) were manufactured in August of 2010 as per the date code and installed on a 2010 Ford truck by Ford and now have 31000 kilometers (just over 19000 miles for those of you still using that obsolete system) on them. Tread wear is just over 1/3. The cracks that make a person want to replace the tires are deemed by the dealers and distributors as a COSMETIC problem and not a manufacturing or material problem and the tires are safe to use (verbal, not in writing). This isn't the first time that I have had similar problems with this manufacturer and companies owned by them.

    Now you really want to replace your tires every five years for a good reason, never mind waiting for 6 to 10 years.
    IMG_2525.JPG
    The maddening part of this is I sure could have made better use of over one thousand dollars toward finishing off my A coupe.

    Canuck
     
  12. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    Michelin may be good tires but they are the worst for aging and developing leaks. Use them if you drive a lot and wear them out fast, they are great for that.

    Rubber is a compromise between traction, wear, friction drag, resistance to ozone and sunlight and various other factors. Cost also comes into it. There are different formulas for different purposes. The manufacturer picks the rubber he figures will work best for the intended purpose.

    I would also say, drive them more is good advice, if you want to get your money's worth out of your tires.

    You can also sell your takeoffs on Craigs list and get a few bucks back. Let someone else have them that needs them.
     
  13. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    theres this long skinny pedal to your right....Cures the 90% tread life thing right away, on the back at least...
     
  14. Canuck
    Joined: Jan 4, 2002
    Posts: 1,104

    Canuck
    Member

    Rusty

    I think in the case of the tires on my truck, I wouldn't want to sell them to someone else to recoup a few dollars. Any tire that looks like they do should be scrapped.

    Canuck
     
  15. afaulk
    Joined: Jul 20, 2011
    Posts: 1,194

    afaulk
    Member

    I'm lucky if i get 2 oil changes between tire changes. Like
    falcongeorge said, use the pedal to the right a little more.
     
    falcongeorge likes this.
  16. aaggie
    Joined: Nov 21, 2009
    Posts: 2,530

    aaggie
    Member

    There are so many things I would say on this subject but I'll keep it brief.
    Tire manufactures rate their tires with heat, tread wear and traction ratings. Everything is a trade off or compromise. If you want more traction you give up mileage and get more heat. If you want high mileage you give up traction. It's your choice.
    Tires are an investment in safety and the pleasure you get from another level of overall performance of your ride.
    If you are getting 6+ years from a set of tires you must park it in the living room with track lights shining on it and dust it every night before going to bed. I drive my cars like they were meant to be and the only cracked or dry rotted tires I had to get rid of came on the project when I bought it.
    Sorry for the rant.
     
    falcongeorge likes this.
  17. mgtstumpy
    Joined: Jul 20, 2006
    Posts: 9,214

    mgtstumpy
    Member

    I drive my 35 as much as I can however it is not a daily driver and on limited registration so it can't be driven everywhere due to the restrictions. I bought 4 x new Hankooks when it was built and last year with 35K on the odometer I came around a corner not far from home and the LHF tyre failed suddenly. I thought it was a flat and used a can of tyre repair as I didn't have far to travel. Nothing happened with foam everywhere. I drove a little to rotate the tyre to get a better look and saw that the tread in one place had separated from the casing. Looking further after I removed the wheel from the car I noticed a lot of fine hairline cracks in that area where the tread joins the tyre casing similar to post# 11. I swapped tyres and drove home. When I looked more closely at the other three (3) tyres, they all had similar fine hair line cracks. I didn't want to take any more chances and replaced ALL four (4) tyres. I scrapped the front tyre and gave the rears to a friend as SETUP tyres for his project stipulating that they were not to be used as drivers!! Looking back I'm lucky I wasn't travelling at speed, the results could have been catastrophic if this happened at speed on the highway. Not too many fluctuations in temperature here where I live.
     
  18. The report linked to is a summary. I had a link to the full report (over 100 pages) but lost it when my computer died and have been unable to find it again. But the fact remains, the NHTSA refuses to issue a 'tire age' recommendation or mandate because a 'one size fits all' approach simply doesn't work. If you look at the temperature chart shown in the linked summary appendix, you'll quickly see that those not in the sunbelt (and particularly those further north) will expose their tires to high temps much less. In SW Washington where I live, I have 1/7 as many hot days (over 85F) as Phoenix, so it should be obvious that my tires aren't going to age as quickly.

    Virtually all of these 'recommendations' have been issued for one of two reason; if it's from a manufacturer, it's to limit any possible legal liability. If it's from a tire retailer, it's an easy way to generate more tire sales. Tire manufacturer, probably both reasons. And don't forget, they're merely recommendations; you won't find a single manufacturer that plainly states that their tire becomes 'unsafe' at some magical date.

    Again, if you live in the sunbelt, these recommendations are probably fairly accurate. But if you don't, these pronouncements of 6, 8 or even 10 years of 'maximum' life just aren't true. There's no substitute for proper care and monitoring of your tires.

    And despite Canuck's claim, Michelin isn't the worst; try Avon motorcycle tires. I've had those develop extensive cracking all over the tire in as little as two years (in my climate no less!) and was told the same thing.
     
  19. thirtytwo
    Joined: Dec 19, 2003
    Posts: 2,639

    thirtytwo
    Member

    Not in their best Intrest , why would they want you to buy less?
     
  20. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 8,661

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

    Just did a 1,000 mile motorcycle ride and took this Dunlop off the back. Didn't want to but I was starting to wear through the cords. ;)

    Seriously I about shit a brick when I noticed it. :eek:

    I'm like Tubman, 8 cars and trucks, 12 motorcycles, trailers... I've had sidewalls crack but this was a first.

    0817150809.jpg
     
  21. theres this long skinny pedal to your right....Cures the 90% tread life thing right away, on the back at least...

    George, come on over and give me a demo !
     
    Hnstray likes this.
  22. Ramblur
    Joined: Jun 15, 2005
    Posts: 2,101

    Ramblur
    Member

    I remember some manufacturers marketing to RVers in the last 10 years claiming a more UV resistant rubber compound. Dunno, I bought a 63 C700 dump truck in 1977 with Gum Dipped Firestones on the back and ran them for 25 years before sending it down the road. Wasn't much tread left mainly just the lugs on the sides, BUT they never dry rotted, and that's in the Florida sun.
     
  23. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 6,916

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    This is exactly what I am getting at. Why can't one of these "trade-offs or compromise(s)" be overall tire longevity? I would certainly give up tread wear or ultra high speed capability for increased longevity. Certainly modern technology should be able to do this.

    Pardon me, but you know nothing about my cars, my life, and driving habits. I enjoy my cars up here (Minnesota) as much as the weather allows. I'd rather drive one of them then any of the DD's available when I can. It's still pretty tough to put more than a couple of thousand miles a year on a car in my situation. And I do run tires more than 6 years, because I know they are "living" in the best possible environment; it's just when they get over 10 years old that I start to worry. I ran the Firestone bias re-pops on my '51 for over 20 years when I decided I had to change them out. And those were bias-plys that will only give 10 to 20 K per set. What about radials that will go 60 to 80K?

    Also, someone mentioned the "long skinny peddle on the right as a solution for reduced tread wear". In some cases (restored, older cars), this is not a solution. I know this is a Traditional Hot Rod forum, but as I said, I think this is a subject of enough general appeal to be of interest of all "car guys".

    BTW, I'm kinda glad you said it was just a "rant".
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2015
  24. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Just got a SCREAMIN' deal on a set of new AFR195's, and as soon as the garage is done, its gotta come apart to deal with the timing gear issue. Theres some changes in the works....I'll see you in the spring, with some new drag radials, a close ratio gearset, and another 50 hp;).
    Oh yes, and PS, looks like I've finally fixed the charging system/electrical issue....:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2015
  25. I just spent 1000 bucks on a new set of tires. The other ones were 8 years old. This will be my 3rd run to Canada from SoCal and i'll be damned if I want to hunt up a new tire in bumfuck Oregon. It is far better to be safe than sorry. Oh yeah on my runs to Canada I some times run a bit over the posted speed limit!!
     
  26. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Looking forward to your annual visit Fuzzy. Maybe Fedman will make it out to the show this year.
     
  27. Jimmy2car
    Joined: Nov 26, 2003
    Posts: 1,707

    Jimmy2car
    Member
    from No. Cal

    Buy Continental Radials. Safe and last a long time
     

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