Technical Help!? 53 merc/39 toploader clutch problem

so im hoping someone out there can throw some knowledge my way. I finally got my Roadster buttoned up and ready for its first trundle down the back lane under its own power since i replaced the worn out 48 flatty with a 53 Merc unit. put my foot on the clutch (all the way down to the toe board) and tried to put it in gear.....lots of grinding. the clutch was great before i swapped the mill and i have the correct bell housing adapter because the gear box and engine mounts all lined up perfectly. so afr my fault finding methodology has gone like this.

turn off motor, select gear, kick starter over, car moves...gear selector working as it should, probably clutch issue.

remove pedal assembly, remove access plate in bell housing, rotate clutch shaft...throw out bearing moves forward till it hits the three levers on pressure plate and jams solid....no movement in levers....

pull motor and trans, remove gear box, take clutch apart...everything as it should be...check pressure plate levers, they move under pressure but are very stiff....the three screw in adjusters that throw out bearing hits are adjusted evenly (this is a brand new pressure plate and friction disk)

swap in the pressure plate that came with the 53 motor, put it all back together...throw out bearing now touches levers and depresses them ever so slightly but still not enough to release clutch.

I need to add here that all clutch components i'm using are new and torqued to spec....there is about 3/4" of travel before throw out bearing hits the fingers on the pressure plate (3rd photo below)...it just feels as though at that point it runs out of travel. in my mind there are two things that could solve this...either a deeper throw out bearing or a thinker flywheel. i gues my question to you all is....Is there a well known combination of clutch components used when mating a 53 Merc to 39 top loader? can anybody see anything I might be missing? sorry for the long winded post but i just wanted to make sure you all can see what ive checked so far...this must be a combo thats been used a million times before....

 

When was the last pic taken? Motor out? or motor in car?

The reason I ask, is there is a country mile of space before the TOB touches.

There only needs to be a slight air gap between TOB and fingers when diagnosing this.

 

Another thing that looks a bit odd in that pic, is the angle of the fingers. Not saying it's wrong, it just caught my eye.

 

Need some fork & release bearing sleeve / collar pictures.

 

Looking at the photo of the bearing. It looks like the space between the spline hub of the disc and bearing hub is far less than the space between the bearing face and the 3 P.P. fingers. Wish I could tell you exactly what parts you need for correct combo of parts.
The Wizzard

 

thanks guys. F&J the photo was taken with the engine out, this is with the preasure plate that came with the Merc motor (looks like pressed steel fingers rather than cast. the gap between bearing and fingers is slightly smaller than it was with the pressure plate for the 48. the adjusters on the fingers of that plate were screwed right out too....it occured to me this afternoon that perhaps there is a pressure plate available that is deeper than the two I have and would consequently move the fingers closer to the bearing. does anybody have an idea for a resource i could use to compare dimensions on different clutch components? anybody have a bunch of different flathead pressure plates kicking about to compare? its a 10" clutch

cheers guys

Felix

 

On my T.O. bearing hub the sleve is flush to the face of the bearing. I think your hub is grabbing the splined hub of your disc.
The Wizzard

 

I have a bunch of loose parts. I can take photos and post. Not sure what that would do. I think you need to contact Dick Spedaro on here.
The Wizzard

 

Spadaro passed away, and the shop is no more.

Bruce Lancaster would likely know about the pressure plates.

 

Wrong name. Sorry. Try Bruce Lancaster

 

Just for the heck of it take a cresent wrench and twist the throw out shaft and see if the bearing housing touches the disc hub.
The Wizzard

 

Ok, went back and tried that to double check but the bearing doesn't get anywhere near the hub of the disc, what you can see in the photo is the smooth section of the shaft that the bearing slides on. The bearing hits the pressure plate fingers an easy inch and a quarter before it would touch the friction plate hub. it really feels as though it runs out of travel just as it connects with the pressure plate fingers. this makes it feel at first as though the pressure plate is at fault when in reality i think the bearing hits a dead stop. I'll pull the trans back off tomorrow so that I can measure some stuff...in the meantime it would be great to know whether there is a deeper pressure plate that would move the fingers closer toward the T.O. bearing.

 

Sounds like the disk is installed backwards. Like flywheel side is placed on the clutch side.. MAYBE??

 

I'd bet money on the above being right. Putting the disk backwards will bottom the hub of the disk onto the flywheel or flywheel bolts holding the friction area away from the flywheel causing the clutch to compress more and the figures move in wards...I did it twice [ot cars] but caught the mistake when noticed the fingers so far in....First time I wasn't paying attention [duh] second time I oriented the disk right but turned around for better access and well now dumb ass..

 

That was my first thought and why I initially tore the thing down but didn't seem to be the problem....however as I'm writing this I'm realizing that the only thing I'm going off is a small sticker on the friction disk which says flywheel side......there is of course a chance the sticker is on the wrong side of the disk...I'm going to pull the trans off this morning so that's easy enough to check....fingers crossed I'm a dumb ass and its that simple...

 

Disk might be a problem, pressure plate almost certainly is!
Late 1951-53 Mercs went to the late Ford trans and small collar/small throwout bearing. Fingers are too long (and probably at wrong angle) to play with the early Ford big collar/big throwout.
You need a '49-early 51 pressure plate, or perhaps a trip to a good rebuilder to get dif fingers in yours!
Someone on here recently posted numbers foe an easier to find modern diaphragm that works. I lost track of that, need to run it down...

 

When installed a 50 Merc in my 40 Ford I had to use the Merc flywheel, clutch disc and pressure plate and the 1940 Ford throw out bearing. I think the same is true when using the 39 Ford transmission.

 

Yes, '32-48 Fords can use same bearing as '49-50 and early '52 Mercs. Also same on most trucks at least until '52.

 

Can the disc actually be put on backwards? I just assembly my last week and for the life of me I can,t remember!! I thought it could only go on one way? Have not started or try it yet(hopefully its on right-50 50 chance) Pete

 

So you think a 49-52 (53?) TO bearing may solve the issue Bruce?

19Fordy, do you know if the 50 Merc fly wheel was significantly thicker or had a greater offset, thus moving the whole assembly back, closer to the TO bearing?

As it stands the bearing hits the fingers fair and square...it just doesn't have enough throw to move them significantly...it looks as though the whole assembly is too far forward.

 

You need to change the pressure plate, not the flywheel or throwout bearing. Flywheels I believe are the same for '49-53 Mercs. '32-48 Ford and '49-50 Mercs use same throwout.

 

I get you Bruce, so now the question is which pressure plate is deeper, placing the fingers closer to the TO bearing? I have the pressure plates from the 48 engine and 53 engine, neither work for this combination. I will measure them now for reference.

 

I think you want the 49-50 Merc P.P. It works with the early T.O. bearing and your 53 flywheel.
The Wizzard

 

Thanks pist-n-broke. Now I get it. Does anybody have one to measure for reference while I have the other two in the bench? Even better anybody close by in LA with one I can check with before I spring for yet another pressure plate?

 

Here's a post showing finger dif http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/1949-merc-pressure-plates.970026/#post-10925966 not for original merc stuff, but a modern replacement.
Depth is one thing, but size of the space encircled by the fingers can be a fator too...they can move off of the bearing into the snout are as they are depressed when small style is used with early Ford/49 Merc throwout

(edit...as I noted above, probably a good rebuilder could put early fingers into a '53 merc type plate)

 

Thanks Bruce, your help and guidance is greatly appreciated....

 

Photo's coming up.

 

P.P. on the left is 49 Merc and is an 11" disc for the late flywheel. The other is 51 Merc same as 49 up Ford car and is 10". Notice they are different bolt circle to flywheel. You can re drill for different bolt pattern. On the left or 11" P.P. the 3 fingers are 2-7/8" center to center and 3-1/4" high from face plate.
The 10" P.P. is 2" center to center on fingers and 2-5/8" high from face. Hope this helps.
The Wizzard

 

I should add the 11" P.P. uses the early or large throw out bearing like all 48 and early Ford's the 10" P.P. is for the smaller bearing like 49 up Ford Cars use.
The Wizzard

 

^ that one on the left looks like the early Olds V8 pressure plate I used in a 40 Ford, stock 40 trans, but Olds V8 motor swapped in..

I ran across an estate with piles of these types of plates.

I bought all the Olds V8 ones, but there were an equal amount of these plates that looked the same, except the "two holes" were slightly different measurement apart, than the Olds ones.

There were 3 pairs of holes, like the Olds. Same adjustable fingers. I wonder if they were Merc at this point?

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