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Technical Opinions...?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by RatPin, Apr 22, 2015.

  1. RatPin
    Joined: Feb 12, 2009
    Posts: 574

    RatPin
    Member

    So I purchased a vehicle a couple months back with the intention of just getting it running and moving under it's own power until I have time to decide where I want to go with it. Its a '53 IHC. Still 6 volt. The guy I bought it from told me it was running fine when his father pulled the carb off to be rebuilt. His father then had a stroke and the truck sat in a field for the next 8 years with the carb off. When I got it home I started nosing around and saw that it appeared to have very clean oil, new plugs, recent distributor. So I went ahead and figured it should start and run with ease. I picked up a new 6v battery, new coil, new plugs and wires, cleaned out the fuel pump, replaced fuel lines, installed the carb and gave her a crank. Clunk. Starter tries to engage but engine seems stuck. Pulled fan belt to make sure it wasn't the water pump, nope water pump spins free. Put some MMO in cylinders every 3 days for a week while rocking the truck in 2nd gear, clunk, still no movement at all. Then I pulled the valve cover and was disappointed to find it very built up with sludge, about 1/8" thick (see pics)

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    So what are your guys' thoughts on this? Should I continue with what I am doing? Is that excessively dirty valve train a sign of something terrible? I have already spent about $150 in parts and some time with this. My intentions are not to make it a dependable daily driver I would just like to at this point get it to move under it's own power, maybe be able to run it up and down the street until I have time to decide what I want to do with it long term (already two projects in front of it)
     
  2. That's what I would expect to see in a 1953 engine that has not been rebuilt or maybe rebuilt 40 years ago.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  3. AVater
    Joined: Dec 9, 2008
    Posts: 3,147

    AVater
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    1. Connecticut HAMB'ers

    8 years with the carb off not a good sign--moisture problem waiting to happen. Have also seen a clutch frozen/stuck on the flywheel too. X2 on Choffman41
     
    Maverick Daddy likes this.
  4. RatPin
    Joined: Feb 12, 2009
    Posts: 574

    RatPin
    Member

    Probably best then to just leave the sludge there and not try to flush anything clean unless I remove the head huh?
     

  5. I'd try to free it up before jumping ship. Maybe use a 12v battery. I use to run one in a flathead powered truck I had a few years ago, didn't hurt anything. It sure started nice.
     
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  6. RatPin
    Joined: Feb 12, 2009
    Posts: 574

    RatPin
    Member

    It has an updraft carb so nothing should have really gotten in that way except maybe a jumping mouse. Luckily no water would have ever gotten in the manifold. It was also in northern Cali so the climate was pretty dry.

    I will check the clutch. Are there any easy ways of freeing the clutch if its frozen? It's a 3 speed comlumn shift.
     
  7. pitman
    Joined: May 14, 2006
    Posts: 5,148

    pitman

    The application of MMO is exactly what worked for me. Can you use a higher gear, and get more leverage, to break it free? Worst case; you break a ring land from rings that are stuck.
     
  8. RatPin
    Joined: Feb 12, 2009
    Posts: 574

    RatPin
    Member

    I was bumping it pretty hard with my tractor over the weekend but decided to let the MMO set up a while longer. I have freed stuck engines sitting 25 years in the past with just the MMO and rocking. I may just need to be a little more patient.
     
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  9. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    Keep soaking the cylinders and see if it comes free. If it doesn't loosen up in a reasonable period of time, like 2 or 3 weeks, you will want to take the head off and have a look.

    Oil up the valves and tap the ends of the rockers with a hammer. The spring should bounce back. If it does not, you have a stuck valve. Oil it and pry it up. It should snap up fairly easily and come loose if you do this a few times. Do not drive the valve down far enough to hit the piston.

    Also the clean looking oil is because it has been sitting so long the dirt and sludge has settled to the bottom of the pan. If it comes free you might want to take the pan off and clean out the sludge but of course, this would be a wasted of time unless the engine will run.

    You can get more leverage if you take the starter off and pry on the gear teeth of the flywheel.

    Stuck clutch is fairly easy to free up. There should be an access plate of some kind on the bottom of the bellhousing. With that off, have someone hold the clutch pedal down or prop it down with a stick. Now slip a knife blade between the clutch plate and flywheel and between the clutch plate and pressure plate. This should break it loose but if not, turn the engine 1/3 a turn and do it again.
     
  10. RatPin
    Joined: Feb 12, 2009
    Posts: 574

    RatPin
    Member

    Good advice, thanks! I got a socket for the crankshaft bolt to. May start going to town in that.
     
  11. Slopok
    Joined: Jan 30, 2012
    Posts: 2,919

    Slopok
    Member

    Are you trying to get it to turn with the plugs in or by leaving them out? If you leave them out it will be able to let MMO out. Try using 3rd gear as mentioned earlier.
     
  12. RatPin
    Joined: Feb 12, 2009
    Posts: 574

    RatPin
    Member

    I have the plugs out so I'm not fighting compression. What do you mean let the MMO out?

    I've tried rocking it in all 3 gears.
     
  13. Slopok
    Joined: Jan 30, 2012
    Posts: 2,919

    Slopok
    Member

    Marvel Mystery Oil. Thought maybe you had hydro lock but you've said you did this before. I freed up one that was sitting since 1986 with the carb on but no air filter. Ran like a sewing machine after it blew out the acorns out of the exhaust.
     
  14. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 9,814

    BJR
    Member

    I have freed up a stuck clutch by just starting it in gear and driving it while holding the clutch pedal to the floor. Floor the gas and slam on the brakes a few times. Do nothing with the sludge until it is running, why waste time on something if it will not run. You could also try pulling the truck if the clutch is working, and pop the clutch in 3rd gear at about 10 MPH. Do that a few times and if that don't free it up, time to pull the head.
     
  15. blue 49
    Joined: Dec 24, 2006
    Posts: 1,820

    blue 49
    Member
    from Iowa

    An old friend of mine has always said sludge in a used engine was a good sign. It means they weren't adding fresh oil all the time, and therefore it probably didn't use any. Once it's broke loose and running that might not be true though.

    Gary
     
  16. RatPin
    Joined: Feb 12, 2009
    Posts: 574

    RatPin
    Member

    Yeah the master cylinder is shot too, but don't want to invest more time/money until I know if it will run.
     
  17. RatPin
    Joined: Feb 12, 2009
    Posts: 574

    RatPin
    Member

    By e way, are there any tricks to priming an updraft carb on initial startup? This is the first one I've had.
     
  18. My friend and I fixed up a '56 International 6 that had been sitting. His was frozen too at the rear most cylinder. It doesn't take a lot of work to pop the head off and see what's going on. We tried dragging his truck all over the yard, dumping the clutch, etc. Just would not unstick. Hopefully you have better luck.
     
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  19. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    It costs you nothing but a little time to pull the head. That gives you the best opportunity to assess the "stuck" condition and correct it with the least damage to the pistons/cylinder walls.

    If you don't like what you find, go no further. If the problem is easily remedied, by a head gasket kit and put it back together. Dropping and cleaning out the pan at that point is also a good idea.

    Ray
     
    i.rant likes this.
  20. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,856

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    If I get my hands on a stuck motor it's coming apart to see why it's stuck. All respect to the OP and others, but I can't see how anybody would free up a stuck engine and then run it without finding out why it was stuck in the first place. I just imagine a rusty cylinder eating up the rings as the engine tries to polish itself back to life. Doesn't sound to me like a recipe for long term success....almost as good as a Bon-Ami or Ajax honing job.

    The sludge is your friend, not your enemy. It is the normal result of older non-detergent oils and has acted like a waterproof preservative until now, but it probably isn't causing your engine to be stuck. Your engine is stuck because of rust, varnish, or a mechanical failure, none of which will be cured unless you disassemble.
     
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  21. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    Depends how bad it is stuck. If it does not come free fairly easily it is best to take the head off. But this is not free either - it will cost for a gasket set and labor at least.
     
  22. I'm with Ray you have already tried to get her unstuck, if you are sure that the transmission is going into neutral before you are hitting the key and got nothing.

    You have two choices here. First pull the starter and try turning it with a breaker bar and then pull the head and see what you can see on the top side of the pistons. If all looks good there then drop the pan.

    But Ray is correct pulling the head is almost free and may enlighten you a bunch.
     
  23. vtx1800
    Joined: Oct 4, 2009
    Posts: 1,709

    vtx1800
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    My father in law had an old Allis Chalmers WD tractor (his dad had purchased it in the late 40's or early 50's) and it had been stored in a shed (but the roof leaked and water ran down the muffler) and the engine was locked, he tried all kinds "tricks" to unlock it including the ones listed in this thread, but ultimately he bent a rod:( My only advice is "be darn careful". It turned out that a cousin of mine had a spare short block to salvage a rod out of but to get that rod out he had to actually break the sleeve (most tractor engines have removable/replaceable piston sleeves).
     
  24. pitman
    Joined: May 14, 2006
    Posts: 5,148

    pitman

    Been there, unfortunately Done that! :rolleyes:
     
  25. RatPin
    Joined: Feb 12, 2009
    Posts: 574

    RatPin
    Member

    I agree, don't want to do more damage than already there. I will let the MMO soak in another week or so before I get really aggressive trying to break it free.
     
  26. RatPin
    Joined: Feb 12, 2009
    Posts: 574

    RatPin
    Member

    Well it broke free today with the help of a high cranking 12v battery. I also think holding the clutch pedal in (even in neutral) had something to do with it. Now I just need to figure out why I'm not getting fuel from pump to carb. With a updraft carb it makes it difficult to get her to start, because you cant just pour fuel down the mouth of the carb. Any tricks?

    Also it cranks over very slow with a brand new fully charged 6 volt battery. I'm thinking I may just use the 12 volt until I can get her idling. Will this fry my coil though? I just installed the new 6v coil and would rather not toast it. Advice?
     
  27. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,355

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    Put an ignition resistor in the + line to the coil. Same as what is used with 12 v systems. Also, take it easy on the cranking time with that 6 v starter. They'll handle 12 v for short periods, but get quite hot when cranked a lot without cooling off periods in between.

    Ray
     
  28. Slopok
    Joined: Jan 30, 2012
    Posts: 2,919

    Slopok
    Member

    I'm sure that the diaphragm in the fuel pump is shot. Bought a new fuel pump locally at either Car Quest or Auto Zone, don't remember but it was inexpensive as I recall.
     
  29. RatPin
    Joined: Feb 12, 2009
    Posts: 574

    RatPin
    Member

    I had removed the fuel pump to clean out all the sediment in the glass bowl and it seemed to be giving decent pressure when pumped by hand. I will take a closer look tomorrow, but this updraft carb design does not make getting this thing started any easier.

    By the way, here is the rig I'm working with. (gray one)
    [​IMG]
     
  30. That thing is cool! Good luck with it.
     

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