Technical SBC, still doesn't start

I had a 63 c10 with burnt ign wires.. The problem starts with how GM ran the very long resistor wire that gets hot. The resistance value is deterimined by the length of the resistor wire. The resistor wire starts at the small bulkhead connector over by the heater on the firewall.

To have enough resistor length, they ran it down towards the starter (in the bundle of wires to starter), and then it did a U-turn back up that harness, then hooked to the + side of the coil. So, it was like having 2 very warm wires wrapped inside a taped harness, because it was a loop. Add engine heat, SoCal heat, and 60 years and it will short out due to failed wire plastic coating.

The other "ignition related wire" in that harness going to the starter; There is the wire that hooks to the inside small terminal on the solenoid, which goes up the same harness, to the +side of the coil. When the solenoid engages, power comes out of that small terminal, which then "over-rides" the resistor wire, and feeds the coil with full 12v during cranking only.

But those are very thin wires, Too thin for HEI. Like was said, HEI does not need that bypass wire anymore, but it needs a decent heavy wire from the Ign terminal on the key-switch all the way to HEI.

So, that small bulkhead connector will have a thin wire from the Ign switch to the underdash side of the bulkead. That wire is too thin for HEI

Another wire in that harness goes to the S term on solenoid.

All that, to say like was said by others; a decent gauge wire is needed, ALL the way from HEI to the IGN term on key switch. I'd test that IGN terminal in the cranking position, to see if it has continuity from it to the BATT terminal on the switch (test with switch wiring plug disconnected)


But...the fact remains.... if all else is good with the engine, it "should" at least fire up with a jumper from the battery-to-HEI for now. I don't know what is being missed.

 

So... The only thing wrong I can think of is... you said you pointed the rotor toward the #2 cylinder. When you install the dizzy, no.1 should be at tdc on compression stroke. Then point the rotor toward #5. Assuming all your wires are where they should be on the coil, it should fire.

 

I think RnRD is beyond assuming anything at this point. IF #1 IS AT TDC on compression stroke, the discussion about pointing the rotor towards ANY cylinder is just so that you choose where the #1 wire will have to be. His manual says point it towards cylinder #2. (front pass side)
THEN, you put the wires on the cap, starting where the rotor is pointing to #1 and connect them to the corresponding cylinder's plug (preferably one at a time following the CLOCKWISE FIRING ORDER) or at least checking that each one actually goes to the cylinder it is supposed to.
With that done and a jumper wire from the battery to B+ on the cap, it is time to check for spark at the plugs. If there is spark, but no fire, you are checking as stated above for fuel. If a little has to come from a squirt bottle to get it to fire, so be it.
Once the engine fires, with the help of info like from F&J above, the switch wiring can be resolved.
12.58v at the key seems like enough, but the idea of switch's power coming from fuse panel sounds wrong. More often fuse panel gets part of it's power FROM ignition switch to distribute thru fused circuits. There will be always hot fused circuits at panel, but not normally supplying ignition switch power.

 

I HATE WIRING.... RUN A JUMPER FROM BAT TO DIST. that should start truck if all else is right. if it starts you will have to pull the jumper from bat to stop the motor. My 59 elky developed wiring issue with the hei. . I had to run the jumper from bat to trace down the problem which I'm to ashamed to tell what it was. I did go under dash after I got it running and found a KEYED 12 volt off the fuse panel to run hot wire to dist. don't give up.. did I mention that I HATE WIRING........GOOD LUCK

 

For whatever it might be worth.....

Ignition swap included...

1. Setting motor to TDC
2. Installing dissy with the cap off
3.>>>>>>>>>>>> Setting rotor to point to #2 piston on engine (like the shop book shows)<<<<<<<<<<<<<
4. Make sure it lines up with #1 on cap.

Don't forget the number one cylinder firing position on the GM HEI distributor is at 5:30 on the clock face, not 6:30 like the classic chevy breaker points distributor.

http://www.classiccarauto.com/impala/how_to/install_distributor.shtml

 

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is firing order. Is the dizzy wired in the right direction? I wired up a 460 Ford three times once, all I could get it to do was backfire and stumble but never run right. Had a book right there beside me, wired it, tried it a while, decided it wasn't right, wired it again, still wasn't right, cussed, threw things, cussed some more, sat down and had a smoke, thought about it for a while. After looking at the book again it dawned on me, I had the right firing order, just the wrong rotation direction. Reversed the direction and it fired up first time! Sometimes it's right under your nose and you don't see it. The fact that a different distributor was tried with the same results points to something being repeated in the wiring that is not right, find that and you will find the problem.

 

Sadly, this can be a difficult concept to grasp when you're used to just swapping out parts till something hopefully "fixes" it. If you don't run out of money first.

Also assuming that the plug wires are properly indexed in the distributor cap. And assuming you're pointing the rotor at the #5 cylinder on the engine which coincidentally puts the rotor at the #1 plug wire position in the distributor cap. And the #1 cylinder is at TDC on the compression stroke. Got to make a lot of assumptions here.

To quote my old friends Sam and Mike:
"Knowledge of operation is the first step to proper diagnosis."

 

I haven't read all the post so forgive me if this has been mentioned. I see at one point he had spark when he jump a wire to the HEI dist. To the op, has this engine ever had a timing gear and chain put in it? If it still has the original plastic gear in it, that could be causing you all kind of starting problems. Dennis D

 

If he is not getting spark does it matter when he is not getting it. It is not a timing thing yet.

 

I thought I read in one of his posts that he had obtained spark with a jumper. I'll butt out...... D

 

He did.
Has it fired recently when a jumper to HEI was installed?

The #2 info from his manual is for a 283 (points dizzy)

 

You appear to have covered the bases as long as you were turning the motor over in the correct direction and the wires are in the correct order and direction on the cap the ignition system should be in good shape.

 

Had a similar thing happen on my 40. Had been fine for years. Went to gas up and go to a show. Came back home and it would not start. Checked for spark and it was there but a weak yellow. Changed coil and it's been fine ever since.

 

(AFTER it fires w/a jumper to cap)
Could there be a manifold vacuum problem also from the trans swap? Have you checked vacuum, plugged any lines?
There is an obvious problem with wiring to and from the key switch. It switches HOT power to the panel circuits.

 

Car don't have a kill swisth hidden under the dash does it?

 

Rftaze, there could be 10,000 things wrong or none. Won't know until its got spark.

One thing is for certain, a Trans swap alone has nothing to do with it. Bumping, fracturing, changing, wires or some component, or an ignition switch coincidentally failing is most likely the cause.

These engines will run on the ground independent of any vehicle or transmission or choice of transmission.

For a no spark, FIRST check
Make sure the rotor is turning-
Make sure the coil is seeing full cranking voltage.

 

There's a great difference between a mechanic and a parts changer
A layout man and a carpenter
A financial analyst and a bank teller
An investor and a gambler
The ball player and the ticket taker.
A sniper rifle and a sawed off shot gun
A fabricator and a welder
A navy seal team and the local Police
A vet and an animal trainer.

Not that any one of those is inferior to the other, because if the roles were reversed, no one is at their potential and everything is suffering, breaking, costing, failing, over killed, missed, bitten, starving.

 

I agree that it has nothing to do with spark.
I don't even know what transmission was installed, but there is a vacuum line to modulator on some. Just asking for after it fires.

 

Turbo 400 has a vacuum modulator that needs to have a tap provided into the intake. The Trans that came out didnt' have a modulator or tap for it.

 

In very last post on previous thread I may have found a clue to the firing problem. (Hard to tell with right side/left side comment.) Just in case.
RnRD - #1 is on driver side (all odd numbered cylinders)
even numbers pass side
There was also a mention of a condenser in the harness to the HEI. Have not seen that before.

 

Jeeze, 3 pages worth and NO ONE has mentioned HOW to check the module???

Connect a test light from ground to the coil (-) terminal.
Keyswitch ON, light should be BRIGHT - you have a good curcuit to the coil.
Crank engine - light should flash from BRIGHT to dim, BRIGHT to dim... If light remains BRIGHT, module is BAD!!!

Just TOO EASY not to check. NONE of the aftermarket modules last as long as the OEM AC-DELCO units. Shop around for the best warranty with an aftermarket unit, if need be.

Do you have an ohmmeter? Use it to check your grounds AND find that f-ing BOGUS wire(s) that is the root cause of your grief. My fav multimeter is a cheapie Equis from Walmart - covers volts, ohms, amps, AND beeps loudly when using the audio contunity test mode. Cost me $25 at wally-world and I LOVE it!

Drawing out the circuit on graph paper with wire colors helps me, when dealing with DEMON ELECTRONS!

MUCHO Luck, Tim

 

Thank you for all the input guys.
Some guys are asking questions that can be answered if you just read my posts.
6-Bangertim, you're not the first to mention the shitty, new, modules. IT is new. I will check it again, just in case it falls under that "shitty category.
I will also post a pic of the condenser in the HEI. It seams to be received as if it was big foot sighting.

 

I removed the plug on #1 cylinder, turned it with a ratchet till piston was on top, after intake valve was closed. The mark did line up at 4°BTDC.

The above can be true and be one revolution off can it not??
I think you have to make sure both valves are closing/closed.
and, if the above is true, is the distributor going to be making spark when & where you think it ought to?

 

Do you have a tach hooked up, I had a problem with a bad tach that was ground out. Just a thought.

 

R&R D -

Just so you know you're not losing your mind - I spent the day in my garage working on an 400 Pontiac from a 78 Trans Am & had pulled the dizzy. It's got a condenser, or at least a small cylinder thing that looks like a condenser, so we can verifiy you have not seen bigfoot....

I've read the whole thread as best I could without getting too cross eyed, forgive me if you've already answered this:

When you ran the jumper wire from the battery directly to the HEI, did it fire?

Someone else said to think of it as trying to start an engine not installed in a car -think of it as an engine on an engine dyno. To start an engine like that, all you need is constant 12 v power to the HEI, and wires to the starter. If you cross the terminals on the starter, the engine will turn over; if you got fuel and correct timing, etc., the engine will start. Of course to shut the engine off you have to pull the HEI power from the battery.

It would be pretty simple to rig up a setup like this - with the jumper wire from the HEI to the battery you are halfway there. You can buy a remote start switch - two wires with alligator clips that you connect to the starter terminals - the other end of the wires is a pushbutton. Or if you are desperate, you can do like we did in the junkyard when were trying to turn an engine over - jump between the two starter terminals with an old screwdriver. Guys who are smarter than me will tell you this is not the safest way, but it's been done before. NOTE - other than the main feed wire, disconnect the other starter wiring - you don't want to accidently cause more grief.

If you do this and you get it to run, fantastic. At least you've narrowed it down to a WIRING problem, not an ENGINE problem.

If you did this, and the thing STILL won't start, then you've got something wrong with the engine itself. Could be the timing. Could be a bad HEI module. Could be a firing order issue. Could be lack of fuel. It's even possible that the worn out timing chain has skipped a gear and is throwing everything way out of wack.

The idea is to isolate weather it's a wiring or an engine issue. Narrow it down to try make some progress. My two cents....

 

No spArk is still no spark,
We can't work with no spark.

Spark to the wrong hole or at tge iat the wrong time we can work with.

Spark to the holes on over lap we can work with.

 

When you said that you pulled a known dizzy from a good running car, then installed it into this truck and still got no spark, that really synchs the deal, right ?

I'm sure it's been on TDC every time I've tried something different. Including when I tried the dissy from running vehicle.

I used a test light and DID have current with switch at ON and while cranking, on the wire from IGN terminal on switch.
I ran a jumper from the battery to the coil and turned it over with a remote starter and DID have spark.

There you go,
Unless I'm reading this wrong, you need a jumper to get spark with known good dizzy.

 

So when I tried the good dissy from the running vehicle, I just checked to see if I got spark, and if it would start. That would tell me if the HEI I was using was defective. I didn't even think to run the jumper. And it's not available to me till next weekend, since it's in a daily driver.

 

go ahead and try it on the one you have. nothing to loose

 

with a jumper and a remote switch , that puppy should start. make sure the switch is ON tho. and the truck is in neutral, or park!