Technical SBC, still doesn't start

It ran like crap. So technically it did. Just as long as I kept my foot on the gas.
The carb was leaking gas. I did the carb kit. And it still ran like crap. Soon after, it wouldn't start at all. I figured out the coil was bad and the wiring was melted. Replaced it and added a ballast. Kept burning points and wouldn't start, so I went to HEI.

 

I don't know why a neutral switch could keep it from starting now, it didn't have one before and it ran.

 

NSS will keep the starter from operating.


Seems like you have a lot of stuff going on here and you've lost your bearings to where solid ground is.
You need to get spark back while cranking. Hot wiring the coil for a test will help you track down the problem.
Once you have spark you can sort out everything else

 

I know a body shop that could-- they can make anything "RUN"

 

31Vicky, what I mean is, if it didn't have one before, how would that keep me from getting spark?

 

When you went from points to HEI did you remove the ballast resistor?

 

It's not,
A NSS keeps the starter from doing anything. Someone mentioned it earlier but that's not even applicable for your "no start" situation. A NSS would come into play on a "no crank" situation.

I'd certainly put a NSS on it after you get the bugs worked out.

If the battery is at all questionable, get a new one in there- even just to borrow it. Other wise just make sure its charged up while you are trouble shooting this.

Just exactly what all did you swap ignition system wise from the "known good running" car?

 

I know it's been mentioned before, but it bears repeating. Use a voltmeter to make sure you've got 12 volts at the HEI. It can't be said enough: with out 12 volts, an HEI just won't work.

In a nutshell: old school points dizzys need 12 volts during CRANK, but once the engine is running the voltage has to be cut back to nine-ish volts to keep from burning up the points. That's the reason old Chevys had resistor wires to the coil and use the "start" wire from the starter to the coil. I think you've got that part down pat.

HEI requires 12 volts all the time. The power wire to the HEI (which is almost if not always pink in color, regardless of GM division) should have 12 volts with the key is turned to crank or run.

The idea above to run a jumper wire from the battery straight to the HEI is a good one to see if you get spark that way, and you know for sure that it's 12 volts.

Something else you might want to look at. You mentioned you were having wiring issues before the HEI swap - melted wires, burning up points, etc. You might want to try a new ignition switch, the old one might be hooped. It would just be bad luck that it failed while you were doing these other repairs, but if the switch is failing internally, where it doesn't fully disengage from the "crank" position to the "run" position, you could have all sorts of issues with spark, melted wires, etc....

 

Anytime I have had an HEI fail it has been the pick-up or module.
Not to say it couldn't be something else but those have been the two problems I have had and seen most often.

 

Ignition swap included...

1. Setting motor to TDC
2. Installing dissy with the cap off
3. Setting rotor to point to #2 piston on engine (like the shop book shows)
4. Make sure it lines up with #1 on cap.

The whole distributor, from the running vehicle, from cap to shaft.

I will check voltage next.

 

Amen.

 

So, I tested voltage with ignition switch ON, I got 12.58 volts.

I tested voltage with switch cranking engine over and got 9.55 volts.
I gather, that is what is keeping it from starting. I would think it would at least it give a weak spark.
Now, where could I be losing current?

To answer the other hambers, it IS a brand new battery, and new ignition switch.

 

I think your problem goes back to the carb problem and the cylinder walls have been washed down with gas and are no longer sealing enough for adequate compression for the engine to run. Pull the plugs and squirt some oil into each cylinder. Crank the motor over a few times, put the plugs back in and then try to start it.

 

The problem is no spark at the plugs.

 

dumb question...but it the rotor in?

 

Rotor is in. I only get spark if I run a jumper from the battery.

 

Can changing the wire, from IGN to cap/coil, from 12ga. to 10ga. make a difference?

 

12 ga. Is good the 10ga. Would be better. But that's not your problem. You need to walk away from the car. Come back a bout Thursday. Then start at square one. Redo everything you have done and see if something jumps out at you. Didn't GM have a problem with the rotors getting a tiny hole in them sometimes. Pull the spark plugs and see if they might be fouled from excess fuel. Wash in brake clean.

 

You said that you have wiring problems.

From the voltage readings it looks like there might be an in-line resistor dropping the voltage to 9.55 while cranking and feeding 12.58 while running - exactly the opposite of what a points/coil ignition wants and not giving your HEI the 12 volts it needs to work.

Just a guess on my part - I'm an old school points guy....

 

Best news yet, after reading two vey painful threads on this truck. I wish I saw the first thread before it got too far.

Listen to the wisdom... he is dead right




If you have spark at plugs WITH a jumper, then why is it not running yet...?

Screw the wiring harness for the moment. Get it to run, then the HAMB will tell you how to figure out where you made a wiring mistake, or where the trouble spots are on a 63 C series truck. I can tell you how/where the wiring was when new on a 63, and what causes them to burn in a certain area...BUT later. Get the motor to run, as if it was on a test stand.



The threads are hard to follow. Nowhere did I see (during the unwarranted swap of the distributor), was the timing mark set at TDC? Meaning ..comperession stroke for #1. Some people don't know the mark don't mean anything, if you don't know where the cam is at. Simple way without taking a valve cover off, is pull the #1 plug, try to get a finger in the hole, and have someone keep tripping the starter at bit, till it begins to blow past your finger. Now look for the mark, line it up by hand ratchet the rest of the way.


Next thing, someone said plugs can be soaked too many times, and somtimes are defective. That was true. The old time plug testing machines put air pressure so the spark could be observed while raising pressure, and sometimes they stop sparking pretty quick at very low cyl pressure

You may need plugs if you can afford them.

Next thing is I read read you "poured gas down the carb".. Please stop. I bet the rings are washed clean, and maybe a slightly tired 283, etc....but too much gas is not what you need. Look at the twin accel pump squirters. If they squirt, that's all you need...to make it attempt to run.

I'm not convinced the carb is OK. Carb kit is not a rebuild, if you don't know which passage is idle, or accel, or mains. The squirters, if working, should fire it up for a moment, even if the rest is plugged up.

Baby steps for now. Keep using the jumper, check TDC the right way and retime if it's wrong. Clean/dry/heat the plugs or replace. Spin the motor over to air out the cyls. I'd tell you to squirt oil in each, but that may foul the plugs more, but should "up" the compression that was washed away with gas.

Keep a huge towel ready if the carb flames. You might be a little off with timing at first.

Lastly, sounds like the battery is weak. Not good for weak compression. It needs to spin good, not lazy at this time, with low comp. Once it ever fires, oil will get back to the rings for a normal start.

 

So am I wired up correctly with those three wires.

I don't want to wait till Thursday. I want to get this pos out, and MY car back in my garage, so it's ready to drive this season.

 

Earlier in the thread you said you installed the dist. w/the rotor pointed at #2cyl. , was it pointing at the number 1 plug wire on the cap , that's easy enough to check...
dave

 

What color is the rotor? early black rotors had problems arcing through the rotor to the advance weights.

 

Quote from my long post;

" was the timing mark set at TDC? Meaning ..comperession stroke for #1. Some people don't know the mark don't mean anything, if you don't know where the cam is at."


I don't know your skill level, so let me rephrase that to:

Some people don't know that the timing mark comes up twice for the cylinder. Once on compression, other is exhaust cycle.

I'm trying to find out if you set it on the comp stroke.

 

It is painful to read a thread about a no spark condition with so many replies that have nothing to do with having no spark. Sounds like you have temporarily solved the no spark condition by connecting directly to the battery. The 9 volts to the distributor when cranking suggests a problem in the wiring. You could install a toggle switch connecting the battery to the distributor for now. Otherwise you need to check the wiring from the starter solenoid to the fusebox and beyond.

 

If the voltage is dropping from 12 to 10, that sounds like the ballast resistor is still in the system somewhere. The fact that you have spark when you run a separate wire sounds like youMay have answered your own question.

 

These threats really do get convoluted. I'm hesitant to get involved in another one but I like to help you.

This is a 10 min or less diagnosis but you need to understand what you are testing and why and have a method about it. There's 1000 books that explain this and I see no need to write another one.

With a fully charged battery Test your cranking voltage at the battery while cranking. Note that voltage, it should be lower than your resting battery voltage.

That full cranking voltage needs to be delivered to the ignition system, and it gets it thru a direct connection to the big ass battery cable within the starter solenoid off the R or I terminal. If its not then you need to track down why not.

I'm not 100% certain but I believe this 63 truck used a special resistance wire off of the ignition switch to the ignition system. If it is there, you need to remove it with hei. Further more, according to the factory wiring diagram two wires from the ignition switch go directly to the starter. One is purple or violet and that goes to the S terminal, your starter trigger. The other is W/Or (white with Orange tracer) and goes directly to the R terminal on the starter, without showing any resistor. Thats highly indicative of it being the special resistance wire. Also on the same R terminal is a GD (dark green) that goes to the + side of the coil. The are using the R post as a junction block. Inside the starter solenoid is a contact that feeds the R post only when the starter is cranking, it should supply the ignition with the full cranking voltage that you measured before.

Ok, now maybe someone removed the W/Or wire or cut it short. Cutting it short will change the resistance , burn your points style ignition without a ballast resistor and not feed enough with a ballast resistor- aka NFG either way for original and NFG for hei.

There's a strange phenomenon where resistors don't resist unless there's a load on them. So you could measure the voltage here and still get full voltage deceiving you into thinking its not a resistance wire.

Now, you get 12 volts and spark with a hot wire only,,, well that means something in the partial book above is wrong.

Once you get your spark while cranking you can start shaking everything else out.

 

Well you'll need to clear your head instead of letting time till Thursday clear it. Getting Aggravated is a sure fire way to add more aggravation.

Remember this is 10 mins tops to diagnose. Clear thinking, concise methods, and accurate testing will root out the problem.

 

If you have used 2 different HIE distributors and you had no spark with either it should be plain as day the wiring you think is correct, is in fact incorrect. Go back over it and do not assume anything is correct. JC

 

F&J, I got you with the screw the harness comment but, it's only 3 wires. The wires that were burnt seams like happen even before he got it.
I removed the plug on #1 cylinder, turned it with a ratchet till piston was on top, after intake valve was closed. The mark did line up at 4°BTDC. Haven't checked plugs again but, removed them twice to gap for HEI, and after I poured gas in the carb.
The plugs are new. It turns over fine, wether I charge the battery over night, or a couple hours.

Although the rotor was pointing to cylinder #2, it was lined up with plug wire #1 on the ca.

The rotor is off white. The one I replaced, was blue.

Yes F&J, I understand it's a four stroke motor.

Roothawg, the wires are hooked up directly. One to cap/coil. One to the starter. And one to the switch from the fuse box.

I will step away for a day, and try again on Monday. Hopefully someone can tell if there is something I missed by reading the whole thread.

Thanks again.