So I've been reading and reading and reading until my eyballs are dry and my head is even more confused with ideas than before I started. A little about me, my wife and I used to have a survivor 49 deluxe but had to sell when the septic failed at our house and the nice man that gave us our toilet privileges back needed about 10k for his time and expertise, so off the car went. We are now the proud owners of an original survivor 52 styleline deluxe. The car had 53900 when bought in September and now it has 56200 on it. We love driving it. She calls it therapy when she drives it. It is a 216 babbit "massager" car with the 3 on the tree and the 4.11 and 205 70 15 tires. The car runs great, especially after a valve adjustment. I daily drive it in town as well as we recently drove it on a 350 mile trip from Billings to Bozeman through rain, wind, and snow over the pass. Love this car! So her in lies the question. The car goes just fine down the interstate at 60-65 but the rpm's are up there as you can imagine. I've read oodles of switching to open driveshaft and the correct rear and a t-5. I don't want a t-5. Part of the reason we enjoy this car so much is the 3 on the tree. So, does going from the 4.11 to 3.55 really make that much difference in cruising rpm? I dont want to go through bunches of work to drop 300 rpm or something small like that. The other thought was to swap to a later model 3 speed to run an open shaft and keep my tree shifting and have infinite rear gear possibilities. If none of this will make a noticeable difference I'll just keep cruising what I got and enjoying it. Life in the slow lane is a good life.
About a 500 rpm difference. At 65 w/4:11 rear 3547 rpm's w/3:55 3027 rpm's. Either way you will kill that 216. A taller rear tire would help a lot. Calculator http://www.csgnetwork.com/multirpmcalc.html KK
Kudos to mtdriver for letting your 216 "stretch it's legs!" Your 52 had 670-15s from the factory so KoolKat is right about taller tires helping. And kudos for wanting to keep the 3 on the tree.
You should be able to find a Borg-Warner 3spd + OD tranny that will more or less bolt in. You can keep the 4.11 rear and 3 on the tree, but have the added advantage of the OD for cruising down I-90. Most BW 3 spd + OD had a 0.67 OD, so that should drop your rpms by about 1000 to 1200. Hopefully your little 216 has enough bottom end torque to still pull the car at 70 and 2500 rpms. Good Luck.
^^^^^^^^^^there is no "3 spd w/BW OD" that will just "bolt in". The car has a torque tube driveline and that would have to be changed to open drive just for starters. Next, the bell housing would have to be changed to either a truck or '55/'62 passenger car part to bolt on a Chevy/GM OD trans. Rear mounts, either at the bell housing or trans would need modification or fabrication. Doable? Yes....but not so simple as you make it sound. Ray
Hi. If you go to the 355 rear end and go to a tire that is around 31" diameter you will drop the RPM to around 2500 or so & that will help a lot but you might hae to shift down to seond on hills at slower speeds. If you do not want to change the eitire rear end there are ring & pinion at the 355 avalible from several suppliers that will fit your torque tube rear end. I have one I ordered from Patricks that will be installed locally next week. Likely it would be less cost if you could find an open driveline pickup rear end that would have the 355 already in it but I do not know how hard to find that would be. As I said Patricks lists these but usually does not have them in stock and they are made to order. www.patricksantiquecars.com or 520 836 1117 [email protected] for email. Contact them & they will send you a catalog. When I ordered mine the ring & pinion was $450 & the installation kit for the torque tube re4ar end that included all bearings, bushings, seals & gaskets was $299.95. Iamgoing to use this 355 & go from 600/16 re3ar tires at 28" diameter to 750/16 at 31.5" diameter and then I will around 2500 RPM at 65 MPH. Good luck, Jimmjie
Ray, you got me. I forget that it took Chevy a bit longer to get rid of the torque tube then Ford. I still think it is the only way that he can maintain the 3 on tree and decent gear ratios for climbing hills and mountains around Montana.
Putting a 3:55 Powerglide torque tube rear end is, in my opinion, the best upgrade (and cheap too) you can do for a 216 that has a 4:11 rear gear. You'll NOT lose torque with the RPM's you will lose at highway speeds, you'll probably actually gain torque. Look at a torque chart for these motors, they start to lose torque as RPM's go beyond about 2500. I ran one of these in high school in a '49 Fleetline. It saves on gas, wear and tear on the ol' babbit pounder, and lets you easily stay in the fast lane. The easy swap is to find someone switching to open driveline, and get the whole she-bang, torque tube, axle assembly, brakes drums, the whole thing and bolt it in as one unit.
Thanks for all the info. I'm currently looking for the powerglide torque tube. Anyone got one they want to ship?? I had no idea such a tall tire would fit, especially on the front. I believe what I have now are about 27.5 in tall. I got a quote from a big yard in Minnesota with bunches of old cars and they are at $500 for one. Yikes.
That's about the height of the original 670-15s, if I remember correctly. Sounds like your best bet will be to just purchase the gears and install them yourself. Here's a good tech article on making the change yourself. http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/rear_end/index.html
0n the FRONT??? I hope no one is talking about the front! the best thing to do is a small block chevy engine and a much newer rear axle
By far the easiest option is keep her at 55 and below. Make the time, choose your routes enjoy the car, and only run with the late models in short bursts. It is what it is. It being a fun little car that's 63 years old. Keep an eye on it and baby it. You may want to change the oil and filters more frequently. The base models had no filter at all. The canister oil filters were not that good so I recommend you change the oil more often than you would a newer car.
Waldo: The torque I referred to is at the rear wheels, where the actual work gets done. T=HP×5250÷RPM with 5250 being the constant used for lb-ft torque. Engine torque is multiplied by the gear ratio.
I do enjoy the car for what it is and I don't want it to be some modern car with an old body. I bought this as a survivor and driver and that's what it will stay. The higher gears will makee feel a little better about trips as this summer will be a longer trip in it. It would be k I nda funny to see it with tall tires on the back and the little shorties in the front, he he. Life in the slow lane is a good life.
$500 is still less money that a gear set and parts and labor to change what you have. Basically cars from this era are what they are. 55 -60 MPH is the high limit of happy motoring. I have also contemplated a gear change in my '53 Ford Courier. It gets real busy at speeds above 60. The drive train is 215" six, three on the tree and 4.09 gears in the rear. This is the car we've had the most fun with. Just plan your trips around the max comfortable speed constraint and enjoy the ride and scenery.
Agreed, which is why I don't want any major changes. I'm happy keeping it the way it is also as it allows for some slow down time from the fast pace of life with work, house projects, and 4 kids. The scenery is part of the ride, not just how soon can I get to the destination. The drive is part of the destination.
Since you have the running and driving car now, just keep looking for the 3.55 third member and buy that when you find one for a good price. Then simple swap. If you do the gear swap, you get 14% lower rpms at same speed (say 65 mph). Get a taller tire (like 2 inches bigger diameter) and you might pick up another 5-6%. So the combination of both gives you approx 20% less rpms. That combo would be the cheapest and easiest fix. It will have slower acceleration, but you are already slow with the 216. i would sacrifice the acceleration for the lower rpms any day. I have a 37 Chevy Ute with 216 and 3-speed. I am pretty sure it is 4.11 gears, although haven't actually checked close enough. I run a 7.00-16 rear tire size and just cruise at 60-65 max and about 2700 rpms.
Hey, it's not broken. Keep driving, and put the word out you are looking. One's bound to come up fairly close by. I agree, lower the rpm and it'll make for a happier engine.
Also keep in mind if you swap the rear end to make sure to use one from'51-'54 as an older one has the Huck style brakes as opposed to the Bendix brakes which is what you want, trust me. Other than that, drive and enjoy!
Definitely. I will just swap the tube and 3rd member. Just completed a brake job all the way around with new shoes, wheel cylinder, and rubber lines. She stops great now.
Waldo was also referring to the torque at the rear wheels. A 1952 Chevrolet 216, fresh out of the factory, had it's maximum torque of 176 ft lbs at a mere 1500RPM. Your assumption in post #9 is that there is a flat torque curve, which there is not. With a 3.55 instead of a 4.11 gear ratio, it is possible that the lower engine RPM may well net an increase in torque at the rear wheels.
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