I surprisingly didn't come up with anything in my search, but to confirm, will All model A and B headers interchange? In most catalogs it just says A-B headers, but I've seen a couple (from scramento vintage) that say 1932-34 model B. I assume these would work on my A? Also, does anybody have experience with Snyder's oil filter that mounts on the timing side cover? I am on a limited budget so can't afford anything like the D4B or SMC systems but I want clean oil. Snyder's other "100%" filter with the new side cover won't work with the tube header or exhaust manifold header, but is that other one any good? Any other lowbuck options, like a universal remote filter mount and what do I them plumb it into on the engine to make sure I'm filtering oil? One last question, is it a good idea to run a filter on a stock oil pumped car? Just like you don't want to add a filter to the stock gravity feed tank, does the pump put out enough pressure to overcome a cartridge filter? thanks!
All engine side stuff is same on manifolds. Farther along, things might differ-- Model A stock ex manifold slants back, '32 goes straight down, Model 46 type B interchanges with A. Figure out the routing of your planned oil system. The stock pump is capable of supplying plenty of pressure, but doesn't because it's just blowing oil through a hole into the open reservoir area for gravity feed. In other words, it just functions to move oil uphill, and pressure isn't an issue in the design--pressure is supplied by gravity and by the dynamic force of the rods scooping their oil at high speed. In partial (Stock B, for example) or full pressure setups, the oil is channeled into a closed channel and forced into some or all the bearings. Pressure comes from the restriction provided by the bearings--oil is forced in faster than it can escape around the edges of the bearing, hence pressure. Stuff in more volume of oil, more pressure; provide a leak, either a pressure relief valve or a bearing with excess clearance, and the big leak determines how much pressure can exist. The very same gears that are in the A pump were used in '32-35 V8's, and provided substantial pressure in a much bigger system. So, figgerout how and where the oil comes out of the pump and how it gets to the bearings--this and the location of the splice determine what the filter does.
to answer my own question, the tube is just for drain back (should have guessed), It looks like the best option is the AFordAble kit that mounts the filter right on the side cover horizontally, that spot has the best oil pressure and doesn't reroute any of the oil. It looks like so much depends on drainback that I don't want to reroute any of it. I guess I'm still looking for anybody that's run the other Snyder's kit that bolts on the timing case cover? If I go with the AFordAble kit that filters 100% I have to a) remotely mount the filter, which may or may not work b) reroute one tube from the header to clear the filter. thanks for any other advice
You may get better advice on Ahooga.com regarding some of the filter set-ups you've mentioned. Personally, I don't know whether the filters that sit on the sideplates are going to filter 100% of the oil. Ideally, your oil needs to go through the filter before being pump around the engine remember. If you've got no filter, just use non-detergent straight 30 oil and change it every 500 or so miles, it's a method thats worked for decades, until you can afford/get around to sorting out full pressure. Then you can include a filter into the system.
you've definitely got a point about the pre filtering. I doubt I'll run the timing case filter, since it only filters about 50% of the oil. Then how will I trust the rest? I might as well just suck it up and change it very often and recycle it every month or so until I can figure out a custom setup. The auto parts stores are gonna love seein me with my used oil! and that's a trick setup, please tell me more!
Just a note, I'm sure you might have already considered this. Full-flow will preclude damage from garbage picked up by the pump that gets past the pump inlet screen, or metal coming from a pump failure; however, if the filter gets clogged, even partially, from not changing it, or water(water will clog it almost immediately!), then it will bypass into the motor anyhow. Partial flow is a waste of everybody's time.
That's the bottom end and filtration set-up on my A 'diamond' block. I ran it for a season with babbitt and stock oil pressure but a holed piston in March of last year meant a build was happening. The A crank has been weighted and x-drilled, the block & rods have been line-bored for inserts, the stock pump modded for full pressure and filter & lines taking oil to the three mains. Do all that, add a hot cam, hi-comp head, downdraught carb & header and a Mallory and you'll have a huge hole in your wallet but an even bigger shit-eating grin.
Bruce, I found a Ford racing product ( p/n M-6880-A50 ) that screws into the Snyders full flow systems oil filter mount then the oil filter screws to it at 90 degrees from the original mount. Will try a picture post but if that fails you can contact me @ [email protected] and I can send it by e-mail.
not to go correcting Bruce Lancaster, but he had the exhaust manafold thing backwards. Model A manifolds exit straight down. 32 exits slanted back. hug the firewall more. On with the show....
.....gonna' build me a 'banger, I-yam!, I-yam! ......gonna' get a shit-eatin' grin, I-yam!, I-yam!......... (chorus) (copy-wright applied for)
On my T i built a full pressure system for the mains by running a Bug oil pump off the back of the camshaft. (if i ever tear that engine down i will do a tech on it. I run a non-detergent 30 weight and a quart of rislone. I change oil every 300 - 500 miles. I really like your tappet cover, where did you find it? oh, well, here are some sneak peaks at what the bug pump looks like installed...
It came from Speciality in Rosemead, they're still stocking them on the shelves I believe. The ali block to the right of it houses the pressure relief valve. Here's another couple of snaps of the plumbing.
Opinion regarding your question on oil filters. For the most part if you are running a stock style engine the addition of an oil filter system is simply dressup. Changing the oil on a regular basis will serve the same purpose. If you have a clean engine to start with, it is free of deposits and sediment debris. The only contamination would be condensation upon startup and that should be removed when engine gets to operating temperature. If you are looking for metal particles you will find it easier dumping the oil than hiding them in a filter. Does it work, yes. Is it necessary, coin toss Headers are another story. The port position of A's and B's is the same, the only difference is the routing of the tubes for clearence. You will have to make the choice based upon your application. I have used 3 different design headers and found that the biggest problem is getting the air fuel mixture warmed up enough for smooth engine operation at lower air temperatures and intial start up.. Since the stock intake exhaust was siamesed the carb warmed up easily. This brings the fuel system to operating temperature rather quickly for smooth running. Headers on the other hand are not in contact with the intake manifold and the operation of the engine has a longer warmup and tendency to stubble during accelleration because of the cold fuel mixture. As engine temperature and operating time increase the radiated heat from the headers warms the intake and this problem goes away. I have had good results with headers from Red's Headers and they have copied my header design for installations on a 32 Ford "B" with the stock wishbone position.
great point- I'll remember that for when I'm tuning my new Stromberg. Thanks for all the great info and pics guys, I love this place!
About headers.....what's the optimal dia/length for the pipes , collector size , 2 to 1 , 4 to 1 , what's the best design ??
If you're building your own header, I think the secret is not to be tempted to use a large diameter pipe because you will lose gas speed and therefore extraction. The A's already suffer because the exhaust valve is a little bit too big, it's no use making that any worse. I use a header from Red's. It's a nice design but I had to have the flange faced as it was warped and I wonder whether the pipe could've been a little narrower. Looks nice, though.
looks great, i had fun doing mine, as the whole thing hides inside the engine, except the oil bypass valve on the side of the block.
Just looking at your pressure system, and wondering if the holes drilled and tapped into the stock main caps would weaken them enough to cause any problems. I read something the other day which said that fitting insert bearings to A conrods would create more problems than it solves. http://www.hotforhotfours.com/babbiting.htm Food for thought???
An interesting read for sure, and while his arguments sound plausible, let's remember that he is a babbitt pourer and concerned with the death of his art. The problem with babbitt comes when you want to make some power: you need to make the engine rev. Mine will rev easily to 4,000, to do that with babbitt would be asking for trouble.
I think its very un-likely that your taking yours that high and I think its even more un-likely that it will go that high with your current set-up. With what evidence do you base that assumption on?
I've got a rev counter fitted, Clark, it revs to 4k very nicely. The power runs out at about 3,100rpm with my current cam though . My dizzy is set-up for a B cam as well, so the curve is set to about 2,850rpm. Fairly easily changed though. My assumption about the babbitt is based on what I've read throughout the Ahooga archives, what I've heard from other A owners & partly from my own experience with the stuff. Sure guys were running 100mph at the lakes with white metal 'back in the day', but they got through a shit-load of engines doing it. Having to drop the pan to check and adjust them every so often doesn't float my boat either. You been watching CSI or something?
Interesting stuff on the banger motors. Here's a few header pics. A couple are recent, one is from the fastest car in a 1947 high school. And no, it wasn't mine. Quite the V8 killer it was....
Two things about babbitt: Thinner is more durable--but of course a lot of cranks are now WAY under. Weak point is #2 Main, which in my opinion is highly affected by high flywheel weight. New CAST B cranks are out there--Maybe stiffer? This was actually a speed secret on early flatheads--toss the early forged crank. THIN forged cranks, like A-B, are very flexible, cast is better UNTIL it goes bang...insert controversy!! Yep, got the exhaust manifolds backwards, even though I have to wade through banger stuff every night...
They're forged--all Ford cranks are til somewhere in '33. The cast nodular crank was a metalurgy tech breakthrough, apparently not a realistic possibility before. Soeone now has just released cast B cranks in repro. What got me thinking was a snippet from a magazine article (one of the Ford service mags not published by Ford) about '32-33 stock racers of the time. Several racers replaced their cranks with the then new cast crank, and discovered increased top speed (2-3 MPH) and smoother high RPM running--speculation was that the forged cranks (very small main journal sizes on these first generation flatheads) were twisting enough at high RPM for cylinders to run significantly out of time with the cam on rear cylinders. So, the new crank became a speed secret... I believe it is correct to say that farged cranks are tougher and more flexible, cast stiffer and more brittle--hence, cast is better UNTIL it breaks... Modern cranks are maybe twice as thick as early V8, and of course Ford radically increased crank diameter starting with some 1935's.
Thats very interesting. If the above is true and the cast cranks were producing a performance advantage with the V8. Could the same performance gain be achived with a 4 banger as the crank is under very different torsional (?) loads?
I would think banger torsional loads would be larger and more widely separated, and probably less damped by activities of multiple cylinders pursuing their courses...and of course that manhole cover of a flywheel is a real big unknown. The V8 cranks have their weight more spread over the crank in multiple weights and throws...we need the HAMB metallurgist, and somebody who actually understands crank dynamics and balancing... I would worry a bit about the banger cranks thinness, but it would be interesting. There might be multiple benefits, or maybe just an expensive "BANG". Flexibility is the banger crank's main survival mechanism... can the paradigm be safely changed??? Incidentally, I've read that the higher powered Model T sprintcars could survive only with NO flywheel excepth whatever minimal flange was needed to hookit up! I don't know if that is actually true, but it does reinforce a lot of other things I've heard and read about main #2 and heavy wheels. I don't know why those T people never thought of just bending up a heavy duty crank from a coathanger...
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