Hot Rods 32 Ford handling issues

Is that how you transfer bodyroll into "grabbing air" on fast corners?

 

Yeah duno, invented in 1919 pretty sure they were used on the salt flats in the late 30's (Chrysler) so Id guess some would have tried them , probbaly good for side winds but as I know shit about salt flats I am probably wrong. But no you dont have to slow down you can try stiffer springs, go too still and it wont be any fun though
BarryA.
"I have read that a rear sway bar only (ie no sway bar on the front) is a no-no. Can you either dispel this as bad info, or elaborate?"
fine if your trying to reduce underster, front and rear would be better but cant see any reason why just a rear would cause your car to suddenly jump off the road into the shrubbery.

 

Not bad info , but good general advice for people who get out of their depth playing with things they shouldn't [but what the hell , we all do this]
It is a myth

Firstly you must understand Bodyroll is an “over turning moment” caused by weight transfer or lateral acceleration [ providing the CGH is higher than the RC ]
Even with no suspension like a Go-Kart you will still get weight transfer but no body roll [unless the driver weighs 300lbs]
This weight transfer must be matched with traction ,so the heaviest end of a vehicle will always slide out first [ VW Beetles oversteer, and heavy old Eldorado barges understeer ]
Harnessing bodyroll is a very good way of“Tuning” handling if somebody knows what they are doing
If we had 2 vehicles with identical weight and Identical CGH there would be identical weight transfer from the inside to the outside wheel during a set cornering speed [G’s]
Now if those 2 vehicles had different RC heights there would be a different situation [ eg: one is set at the CGH ,and the other is set at ground level ]
The vehicle with the same RC as the CGH would not bodyroll at all [even though there is still the same G’s]
The vehicle with the RC set at ground level would have All it’s weight transfer via overturning moment.
Of the 2 scenarios ,the low RC is better because it plants more weight onto the outside wheel whereas high RC’s will either slide out or jack the ride height [eg:VW Beetles and Triumph Heralds]
Most IFS cars with a conventional rear end have a heavy front/rear weight bias and a lower RC in the front [ The RC not as adjustable with leaf spring rear ends ]
The heavy front combined with low RC reduces roll stiffness to the point where the car will OVERSTEER because the outside rear spring gets loaded up during bodyroll [caused at the front]
A slightly understeering car is more stable [and predictable] to drive than a twitchy/unpredictable oversteering cars, so manufacturers use a sway bar [front only] to achieve this.
When you move weight rearward or lower the rear RC [IRS] the front bar can be softer or eliminated totally.
I had a MK1 Lotus Cortina racecar that had a locked rear end, I totally eliminated the front bar [by using strut rods instead] to dial in some more rear roll couple.
I could have used softer front springs but the car was close to bottoming out at high speed.

 

I don't know what grabbing air means, but when I used to make a fast corner with people in the rear seat, the body would tilt real hard, and make contact with the tire on the turn side. You have to get the belts "just right" otherwise your straight ahead ride will be impeded. I've had these on for three years, they work great. I got the idea looking at a sand buggy here in Lake Havasu, there are many of them.
Stimac

 

As quoted above “When you move weight rearward or lower the rear RC [IRS] the front bar can be softer or eliminated totally.”
A good example is the early “A frame” MK1 Lotus Cortina .
Lotus used a 3 linked rear suspension, and placed the “A frame” underneath the rear-end. This lowered the rear RC which effectively softened the rear roll stiffness.
Early Lotus Cortinas were quite spectacular at carrying the inside front wheel [“grabbing air”] during cornering. During that era, it was quite a desirable way to set up the race car because LSD’s were not available.
The soft rear roll stiffness created an “understeering” car, which gave an aggressive driver the ability to throttle oversteer.
Watch this from about 1.40 onwards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWp-0TuY4Sk [ sod it, watch the whole thing it’s only 3 minutes of David vs Goliath on the track ]
The later [1966] Mk1 Lotus Cortina’s went back to flattened leaf spring rear ends and a LSD [they never grabbed air on the inside front]

 

Dont think that would be acceptable here in NZ.

 

Split the bones and you'll have some traditional anti roll

 

I see I was ask a question that I never answered,I have a 4" dropped axle,reverse eye front spring,tube shocks and a panhard bar,,the rear I have coil overs and and sway bar and radial tires..I built the non traditional frame long before I ever heard of the hamb.

My Deuce pickup actually handles better than the sedan and it has a 4" dropped axle,reverse spring,tube shocks and a panhard bar on the front.

A reverse eye spring in the rear,P&J ladder bars,tube shocks and a sway bar. HRP

 

Well, let me tell you about my experience with my '32 Tudor Sedan.
Forgive me if I get a little long winded, please hear me out, you will be better off.

My car is sort of a "traditional" Hot Rod, but I didn't want all the handling ills of an 80-90 year old suspension design, because this is a daily driver with 465 hp, a T-5 and a 9".

Frame is American Stamping rails with Chassis Eng. center section, boxed front and rear of the X member. Very rigid set-up!

In the front, I have a Chassis Eng. 4" drop, "heavy" beam axle with 27" hair-pins, a buggy spring w/reverse eyes, a Model A cross member, a pan hard bar, Vega cross steering, disc brakes and '40 spindles. Sort of traditional? Yep!

In the rear it started with a 9" and triangle 4-bar with Air-Ride's Shock-Waves.

Since this was my first Hot Rod build and I didn't know what to do, I read some chassis set-up books for road racing, because I wanted to drive this sucker. All I knew previously was a little drag race set up and not much of that.

In that book, I remembered a picture of an Allard race car that had a dropped axel and it was carring the inside front wheel around a curve. I was impressed to say the least! In the back of my mind I knew it could be done. I just didn't know how.

An Allard is nothing more than a Ford flathead V-8 (or other early high powered American V-8), an aluminum body with early Ford split I-beam suspension. They were made in England and inspired the late-great Carroll Shelby to develope the AC Cobra! (somebody correct me if I'm wrong). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allard

Anyway, when I got my '32 Tudor running and took it for a ride, it was an evil handling son-of-a-gun! When I'd turn into a curve, I'd have to counter steer halfway into the curve just to keep it on my side of the road! I thought what in the world did I do wrong?

If I were to nail it from the stop sign it would change lanes and I'd have to let off and counter steer before I could hit 2nd gear. This was the most unpredictable, evil handling thing I'd ever driven! If I was in a cross wind of about 10-15 mph, it would roll steer and I had to be on the edge of my seat all the time. It felt like I was driving a half loaded bulk milk truck!

Then I had an issue with one of my brand new Shock-Waves and they told me it would cost another $900 to fix them. Well, you can only guess what I told them.

The next morning I called Speedway Motors and they were very informative, so I bought a set of QA-1 coil overs with 250# springs. What a difference! It didn't cure everything but I knew I was going in the right direction!

Doing some further research, I found a guy by the name of Dick Miller Racing (www.dickmillerracing.com) who does coil over suspensions on dragrace Oldsmobiles. He sells a little booklet about his work and is very informative.

He says every car needs a rear anti-swaybar to launch straight with both wheels up, because of the torsional twist of the rear end. That's why the right rear wheel peels on an open rear end and the left front wheel lifts first on a drag car! It's not motor torque that lifts the left front wheel.

So I investigated anti-sway bars, just for kicks. They were anywhere from $150-$350!!! Determined NOT to spend that kind of $$$, I went junk-yarding and found an anti-sway bar exactly the size and length I needed (7/8" dia.) off a mid 80's F-250 with frame brackets and all for $25. WOW!

With new neoprene bushings and universal control arm links from Auto-Zone, I was in bidness! Everything for under $100. When I installed the bar and took it for a ride, I was shocked. It was now driveable and handled safely, like a go-kart!

As of late, I've persued a VW steering dampener and I can't get over how much better the car handles. No more cross wind or lane change issues! The suspension is very flexible and controlable and the steering is very responsive. I think I'm winning!

This has been a long, long learning curve, but the end result has been very rewarding. I just wish I'd listened to the guys who knew, a long time ago. I'd have had a much better experience years ago. Don't call them "band-aids"!

What Henry designed, worked fine on Model T's, but is antiquated for our Hot Rods of today with so much more power and speed.

Lesson well learned!

 

Al. You have found out one of my secrets. I have used front swaybars from 2wd early nineties Dodge Dakota pickups on the rear of a few Model`a` and 32 Sedans. They are 7/8, easy to mount off the frame and use links that I run down in front of the rearend housing. Each car is different, though, and there are a number of fixes for early cars that will help. Personally, I like Larry`s method...

 

Montanal, if you had an evil handling car that wanted to change lanes and so on from the start, there was something more fundamental wrong than what a sway bar could fix.

If your rear was set up right and the front end was set up correctly with the right caster and alignment specs etc. and everything square and true, steering correctly setup, I find it very hard to believe what you're describing.

And just for the record, I have built and driven a deuce with a the same driveline specs as you listed (400+ hp, t-5 and 9"), along with beam axle/hairpin front, transverse leaf rear.

 

I found it very hard to believe too!

There is nothing wrong with this set-up. Read Dick Miller's book on making rear coil spring cars launch and you will understand.
Very good information.

Better yet, go get a Go-Pro camera (or equivilant) and fix it on your rear spreader bar/bumper so you can record the rear end activity, and you will be shocked!

You don't have a triangled 4-bar on the rear, do you?

 

Jimmy, the stock early Ford front suspension IS in effect, an anti-sway bar with a beam axle.

With split bones or hairpins, they automatically make the front axle as an integral anti-sway bar, because of the leverage of the arms putting twist on the axle during body roll.

This is why they put 4-bars on the front with tube axles and hair pins on the front with I-beam axles. Tube axles don't flex. I-beams do!

You automatically have a built in anti-sway bar in front with a beam axle and split bones. The issue is you may have to put an anti-sway bar on the rear to control roll steer, especially with a rear heavy sedan body. Also in my experience with sedans, is they catch a heck of a lot of side wind from traffic, like semi's!

Split bones in the rear can't flex the rear end housing either, so there is no anti-roll control. With just a rear anti-sway bar only, you can balance the system on early Fords.

But hey, what do I know, I'm just a painter! lol

 

Not so. A stock Ford front suspension has a single rear pivot point below the gearbox.

 

Read the second sentence...

 

I did, that's where you started talking about modified suspensions.

However, a stock Ford front suspension is not 'in effect' or otherwise an anti sway bar.

 

mr Ford had sway bars on the front of his lovely 40 fords with tub shocks in Australia and his 46 version also had panhard bars front and rear, maybe its taking a little time for the hot rodders to catch on

 

There's some good really good info in this thread.

But I can't help but wonder here:
Is it really a question that if you mount a chassis with a body on top of 2 buggy springs (aka balance the top heavy body up there) that it will want to roll. Run a mock up without the spring U bolts and the body can roll right off the springs with so much as a coffee cup on one fender. Even all clamped up tight its really easy to rock a body over and it will stay lopped over to one side.

I've often wondered what effect or what changes would need to come about from spreading the spring ubolts some

 

I wish I could take you guys for a ride in my car. I don't have any sway bars but it does have hair pins in the front and that is a tremendous stabilizer. My car handles flawlessly. Buggy spring on modal A cross member. Hair pins. I've had two different rear set ups. Parallel 4 link on buggy spring and now ladder bars on coil overs. Obviously the ladder bars in the rear stiffened it up even more. You can barely rock my car but it handles/rides great.

Yes - if you have stock front and rear 32 ford suspension with the wishbone front and stock mounted rear bones on buggy springs, you'll need anti roll bars. As soon as you split the bones or install hair pins int he front it should be much more and plenty stiff.

 

Neither is Radial Tires.....you traditional people......I want it to ride like a new car...BUT IT HAS TO BE TRADITIONAL.........lol.........it's like being pregnant...either you are or your not......traditional and comfortable don't go together........all in humor....don't get all mad

 

This sort of thinking [or questioning] was around in dirt racing when my dad raced.
The whole picture of a cross leaf looks unstable, but in reality the centre in not a pivot [it is fixed].

Think of two 1/4 elliptic springs back-to-back with a common perch/mount
If you widened the "U" bolts further apart, all you are effectively doing is shortening the spring which will make it stiffer. [C4 Corvettes had this]
It is actually a good way to Tune the spring stiffness ,when the ideal stiffness is somewhere between the number of leafs.

 

Shitty handling IS traditional.
Which helps explain why the factory
doesn't build them this way any longer.

 

Hot Rodding to most of us is about making our rides a little bit cooler than the run of the mill, off the shelf, cookie cutter cars that we see every day.

That tradition means we must apply ourselves and use our skills and experiences to make them work better, drive smoother, look prettier, corner better, stop better, go faster, last longer or what ever you desire.

Each car we build or modify is an expression of that tradition. The more we learn, the more we express it in our vehicles. They become rolling sculptures of the person that built them.

I kind a like old cars, radial tires, mag wheels, disc brakes, electronic ign., three brake lights, 5 speeds, hundreds of horse power, gobs of torque, 20+ mpg, some engine noise, fresh air, air conditioning and heaters, 12 volts, multi-weight oil, computers, cell phones, inside toilets, etc., etc., etc.

At what point does one become non-traditional? I'm not going to let tradition get in the way of my expression, nor will I let my expression get in the way of someones tradition. That's what Hot Roddin's all about, aint it?!

 

It becomes non-traditional the day you go and buy it from a boutique "hot rod shop"

I personally think "Nostalgia" is a more correct term.
Nostalgia is when we try to replicate a "Traditional Era" [ it is only a photograph in time ]

Some trad rods have continually evolved over a 40-80 year + period, so we now have the problem of 2015 "hindsight" when building a 1932 era car.

one more thing.
NOBODY did anything worthwhile without other people criticising, so when you get criticised for being an individual you know you're on the right track.

It is better to be controversial than totally ignored.

 

Sure they are. My 47 Mercury has them from the factory

 

So there you are.....put a sway bar off a '47 Mercury on your car....it was before 1964, so that is traditional and period correct....lol................life is simple....we just needed to find out what car before '64 had a sway bar........ain't life simple................all in humor......please no left wing attacks...or is it right wing?

 

My 32 Ford: front, I beam, hairpins. Rear, coil overs, straight 4 bars , panhard bar , rear anti sway bar, radial tires. Car handles very well, drive it every where and fast. I disconnected the rear anti-sway bar to see what kind of change would happen. NO LIKE it.
The car body rolled and under steered then it would switch. Hooked the sway bar back up big difference with out it..


Ago

 

I'm out of here on this topic..........ya'll can battle it out...........enjoy life, help who you can help and don't listen to the ones that wont help.............HAMB 3:16

 

That's a good test to reaffirm your decision to put on on.

 

LOTS of possibilities, when it comes to bad handling.

Excessive Toe, wrong air pressure, shock stiffness,
suspension bottoming, bump steer, roll steer,
Panhard bar, roll centers, roll couple distribution,
on and on.

30 years ago, I had a sway bar link snap in the middle of a fast corner.
Still remember that corner, and how big my eyes got.

Recently, I added a rear sway bar to my newish daily driver barge.
Factory compromised handling to save $20 per car.
Couldn't believe the difference. Larger front bar helped too.

If you like driving slow, leave it the way it is.