Hi, I've just created my HAMB account tonight. I'm 23 years old building my first hot rod and I'm in need of help! I'm building a 1930 model a ford coupe. I'm keeping the build very traditional, and have yet to use anything new. I would like to keep it that way. With that said, what are the strongest options for Banjo rear ends? I have my stock 30 model a rear in EXCELLENT condition, however I just picked up a 1949 mercury flathead v8 & 1949 mercury 3 speed transmission with overdrive. I also have the differential, because I will need to convert to open drive now and figured I could have this shaft modified. Right now the engine is in great condition and completely stock, pulled right from the 49 merc itself. I do plan on adding a few engine modifications for a little more HP, which will be all the more reason for a stronger rear. I have my eyes on the vintage Evans heads and intake, but that'll be for another post. Long story short my questions are, what ford banjo rear ends will- 1) handle a flathead v8 of this nature 2) have capabilities of converting to open drive rear end 3) will be an appropriate width to match my 1930 model a front axle. Thanks so much in advance! Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
42-47 Ford truck was open. I'm sure the guys more versed in these parts can tell you how to convert early V8 rears to open drive. There is always the option of using the closed driveline from a V8 ford up to 48. I would recommend a top shift 39 style transmission. 42 to 52 Ford Truck is the same design but came with open drive. For the Mercury V8, right now I would just get it going in stock form and after she is a good and proven runner, then I might consider speed parts. Even in stock form a flathead V8 in a Model A makes it a Hot Rod.
Thanks F-ONE for the response! I have definitely pondered upon using an earlier 3 speed and Torqe tube set up, which would definitely be an awesome and easy way to go. But ultimately I think the column shift is really cool and unique. Along with the 49 merc engine/trans/driveshaft I also picked up the necessary parts for the column shift, which all came from one merc. Now that I have it, I have my heart set on using it! Haha By any chance do you know the desired choice in Banjo rearends suited for a flathead v8 with 150hp? I know this engine came stock 110hp, but I'd like to have the headroom available Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
Find an open drive banjo, or perhaps use an earlier '39 style toploader trans with the closed drive. The Model A rear end however, is not really suitable.. find a later rear end. What you can do though, is chop off the spring perches leaving two of the mounting eyes, and bolt it onto a later rear end to convert to a spring over setup. Or buy some from this bloke - http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/spring-over-mounts.947166/ - which is what i'm kinda considering doing since the perches i've got on my car are a bit shit. If you get a '38 - '40 rear end, the perches bolt straight on. If you use a '41 - '48 like i did.. you'll want an inch spacer between the perch and flange.
Gonna be good build, it's good to see a young guy interested in building a Hot Rod, love those Model A's. Welcome from Minnesota.
28a- Thanks for the good Info. This has me so torn. After looking at the link you provided, those perches look like a damn good way to go! On the flip side, I'm trying to use only original parts (although I know I will have to compromise on a few small parts). My 1930 model a axel is really in excellent condition, and I could totally use the perches off that. But it's sad to butcher the rear end just for that haha decisions decisions! Do you know which years the banjo rearends came open drive? 1927 Graham- Thank you for the warm welcome! Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
Are you in the US? I'm sure junk model a rear ends are dime a dozen over there. I sold my mint model a rear end and used some rusty bells for my perches because I too didn't want to butcher the rear end i had. No one is going to give you shit if you use those fabricated perches, but you could also cut some off another rear end.. both good options. I likely will need to weld up some pitting and rebush my perches before they go on for good when i tear it all apart to paint stuff. Open drives are '46 - '48, i'm not sure about in the US but over here we had them in Utes, Wagons and maybe some trucks? I know the utes had them for sure.. they are quite rare over here. Your mercury trans would be a side shift yes? If its a column they can be a pain to link up. Thats why I suggested using an earlier trans thats a top loader. Alternatively, i don't know about the mercury ones but the lincoln zephyr side shifts bolt straight onto the '41 - '48 side shift transmissions and it gives you a top shift.. however they aren't easy to find. Its really up to you.. you'll want a different rear end anyway.. so either go a later one with the open drive trans.. or find a later banjo (at least '38 - '48.. the earlier ones are a bit finicky as far as converting bits to work with them) and change the gearbox to an early one and use a torque tube. Or of course, find an open drive banjo.. or convert a closed drive.
This is just me, but if I was dead set on the 49 Mercury transmission column shift, I would just use the 49 Mercury hypoid rear axle. There absolutely nothing special about 49-64 FOMOC 3 speed passenger car transmissions. To speak plain, they suck. How are you going to mash the clutch? A F-1 or early Ford transmission uses the same into the case rod as the Model A and early V8 Ford. To Use the 49 up Trans, you'll have to fabricate some type of clutch linkage. Then there is the column shift and that adds more problems. The easy button is the 39 style top shift 3 speed. As said again . these were in F-1s up to 52 with the HD three speed, light duty to late 1950 on the Ford pickup truck. Here is a link.http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/trans-partsprices-pg1.htm If I was going through all the trouble to fit a 49 up transmission I would use a good 4 speed instead of that weak 49-63 transmission. But there is More.......http://www.modelengineeringco.com/bellhous.htm This is a modern version of the "mini bell" from HD three and Four speed truck transmissions. With this you can use a modern 3 or 4 speed...even a 5 speed with the Model A...Early Ford V8 clutch linkage. You can also find the factory part and adapt it. But there is still more...... With a Jeep T150 shift, you can adapt a fully syncro 63 up 3.03 toploader 3 speed to top shift like the 39 Transmission. The T176 Jeep top will do the same for the famous 60s Ford Toploader 4 speed. There is still even more... It is possible to use the 39 shift top on a 60s toploader three speed. It requires modifying the forks and an adapter to fit the top of the 60s case. The adapter shown should fit that Mercury transmission too. The 60s top loader 3 speed is a better unit and about as common as dirt. So if you want to fart around with a column shift, you can use that adapter on a 49 up transmission with coulmn shift. As I said I would prefer the fully syncro 3.03 to the 49 Mercury. Hope I was somewhat clear as this is a cloudy subject.
f one has good info there.the merc stock is 112hp I know that doesn't sound like much but I have a stock flatty in my 51 merc and a 3spd od trans 4.27 gear car is very quick for the size. put that in a model a with 3.93 gears and you wont need to hop it up, just a bubbys ignition and small 4 barrel or a couple deuces for cool factor. I don't know if you can get a floor shift to work unless you run buckets might land the shifter to far back.
F One and Oldsman thanks for all the good info! Now I'm unsure weather to run the 49 merc trans or an earlier 3 speed. F One - you mentioned there is nothing special about the 49 3speed, which I can agree with. However, wouldn't they be just as strong as an earlier 3 speed? What is more special about the earlier 3 speeds? I would like to know so I can factor that into the build if it's truly the way to go. One of the reasons I liked the 49 3speed was the fact it also has OD. I figured that would make it all the more "drive able" compared to an earlier 3 speed. (Considering the fact that neither would compare to a modern trans) Am I miss understanding something? Thanks so much in advance, I'm learning a lot! Also, thanks for the info regarding the newer transmissions, that's very interesting and I totally plan to incorporate that into another hot rod one day. But for this one, I want to keep it early 50's traditional 28A - good point, yes rusty model a rears are a dime a dozen here. Maybe I could find some cheap bells with decent perches! Yes I'm in the US, I live in NY about an hour north of the city. Thanks for the info on the open end banjo rears. Also to answer you question, no this is not a side shift. The 49 merc transmissions are a column shift, and I do have the column and linkage to utilize to make something work in the model a. But now I'm torn between a 39 floor shift! Dang Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
I just posted this to give you something to look at and think about. This goes under a 30 Roadster. That is a 1936 rear axle with spring behind. It's the same width as Model A. It will take all the flathead you want to throw at it providing you don't put a sticky tire on it. Like you I was kind of driven to use a column shift just to be different. With what I did to the chassis the 39 pedal unit would not let me do that. Also the mount for a 40 steering box didn't help matters out. Look close and you'll notice everything there is Old Ford. Not a single over the counter part or Post 1953. The 1953 parts are F-100 brakes front and rear. Just food for thought. The Wizzard
Pist n broke - That looks awesome!! What X member are you using? Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
As far as strength the light duty 1939 style top shift 3 speed is the same as the remote shift 49-63 light duty 3 speed. The later transmission falls into a vacuum historically. To explain a history lesson is in order. In 1939 Ford improved the three speed transmission. The transmission was robust for it's day and the shifting was improved. 2nd and 3rd were synchronized. It also would drop into an A or early V8 with ease. Remember the clutch linkage I discussed earlier. The 39 Ford had a top shift through the floor while some of the later models were remote column shift. The top shift feature and the ease in which it would go right into a early V8 car behind the Flathead made these transmissions almost standard equipment for a Flathead head powered hot rod. So there is almost as much mystique or nostalgia concerning the 39 top shift as there is the Flathead itself. On the other hand the later model 49 and up transmissions kind of fall through the cracks so to speak. While the junkyards were full of the 39 types while young guys were building hot rods, the 49 up style was in new cars. If someone could afford a new transmission they likely used a 4 speed. Another factor that hurt the 49 up style is that it requires the modification to the truck mini bell to use the early Ford style clutch. The 39 or F-1 style was just a bolt on with no worries about clutch linkage. The 39 style top shift has a shifter that come straight out of the top. So the shifter is in the center of the floorboard in front of the seat. A column shift with the side linkage modified into a floor shift or a 4 speed, the shifter is on the tail and it could interfere with the seat. You need to do your research and plan this out. You can use that Mercury transmission if you want and it is an era part. I would invest in a mini bell like was shown in the link and I would make sure it would bolt up to the Flathead. This will save you from fooling with z bars and building your own clutch linkage. As far as overdrive, think about Newtons Law or Pandoras Box. OD was for heavy cars. Do you really want to be capable of the speeds and the ease of those speeds in a Model A. Will 39 juice brakes handle those kinds of speed. Honestly for a first build it's my opinion that column shift and overdrive in a Model A really complicates things. I can see it in my head and it is neat for a mid 50s build but the old standard Flathead V8 plus 39 style is just simpler. BTW use 39 up axles or parts from them as they have juice brakes. Do the research....plan it lay it out. Good luck in what ever you decide.
I'm building a fathead powered A, second one. My avatar is also fathead powered, stock Model A rear end will hold up behind a flsthead. The bearings are the same as the V8 and axles are the same diameter, ring and opinion are smaller. The weak point is the axle keys, you can run V8 hydraulic brakes with small modifications. Building a V8 A by Verb Tardel is helpful.
Anthony; There are a Million ways to mix and match old Ford parts. What your looking at is just that, mix and match. Outside frame rails are Model A and built out of 2 sets. That let me lengthen them to accept the offset front and rear springs "Without" changing the wheel base. The frame is also pinched in the rear and rear cross member narrowed some to let the body slide down over it. My Roadster is channeled 4". The X member is 1936. The tranny cross member is 39 along with the pedal assembly. The rear axle is also 1936 and the Model A spring is being used in stock form. It bolts right on. The flat Model A frame sits 2-1/2" above the rear axle housing. That is a serious lower job without doing a big Z to get there and let me stay with a Flat Floor. Front axle is 1939 with a stock 39 spring mounted in a AA truck front cross member. Again 2-1/2" space between frame and axle. It's all just nuts and bolts and Old Ford Parts, just like we did it when I was a Kid. I'm now closer to 70 than 60. Guess I just don't know any better. The Wizzard
F one- you make a lot of good points! I think what I want to do is get an earlier 3 speed top loader. Between you and pist n broke, I'm now convinced the column shift could get messy Haha. With that said, what parts do I need to keep from this 49 transmission? Do I need the bellhousing still? Any internal stuff? Or do I just literally keep my 49 merc block and the earlier ford 3 speed bolts to it? Any help is appreciated! Model a Gomez - very good to know! Thanks Pist n broke- very cool info! One question - if I decide to channel my coupe body over my model a frame, is it necessary to narrow the rear of my frame? I understand you needed to lengthen the frame due to the spring behind set up, but is narrowing definitely required? Also, how much does an X member like that go for? Thanks! Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
I thought these were pretty cool, I got them for this build (1930 model a). They are NOS license plates! You can see they haven't been used because there are no wearing from screws/washers from being mounted. I took a picture of the license plate number printed on the envelope, confirming these plates did infact come in this envelope..I thought that was pretty cool haha. They do have a few cosmetic issues because the envelope they came in got a few splatters of water on it at some point over the years. Anyways i think they will look perfect the way they are! Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
Model A Gomez is right: If you don't already have it, you need to buy "How to Build a Traditional Ford Hot Rod" by Mike Bishop and Vern Tardel. It's around $30 on Amazon, and covers most of these issues.
Anthony; Your 49 Merc motor has a bellhousing bolted on that will accept the early Ford trans as is. If your going open drive you'll need the shaft and tail housing for the 48 and earlyer case. I may have all of those parts. Would have to dig through some Old stuff to be sure. If you decide to Channel you will need to at the very least clip the ends off your rear crossmember, It extends out past the body panel. If you need to pinch the frame depends on the method you choose when doing the channel job. I chose again not to totally remove the Body sub frame. Here are a couple photos. I chose to use 16 gauge sheet metal. I feel all the square tube and steel plate jobs around are an over kill. Depends on what you are qualified to work with. This X member came out of a frame that got an Up-Grade and I couldn't throw it out. What you might pay for one, I have no idea. There seems to be plenty complete frames with bad rot in arias not damaging to the actual X member. One of Them could be a good investment. That way you can cut it where you need it instead of trying to work with someone else's renderings. The Wizzard
I may have made a mistake about the clutch linkage. I gave advice concerning the 49-51 Ford. Looking at factory schematics it appears Mercury continued used the "Model A type clutch rod" to 1951. How to tell. If your clutch linkage is a rod that turns through a round hole on the side of the bellhousing, it's early ford compatible with the Model A. If it is a heavy sheet metal lever that moves back and fourth in a square hole, it's the later design not compatible with the Model A or Early Ford clutch release. Sorry for that mistake. If it is indeed the early style, your main problem with the Mercury transmission will be setting up a shifter but the clutch compatibility will be fine.
Hi I am on my first hotrod build as well this is the chassis I have been building for my 30 pickup, I used a 39 trans and a 40 rear axle with model a perches as 28a suggested, apart from shortening the torque tube and driveshaft it goes together fairly easily.
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