Technical Seeking advice about shifting a 1951 Desoto Carryall

I'm getting my Desoto Carryall ready to sell and I'm not able to push the car. I jacked up the front wheels and they both turn freely. I jacked up the back and was able to turn the passenger wheel, but it took alot of force. The driveshaft was turning when I turned the wheel. I didn't try the drivers side rear yet. I don't know anything about this transmission and assume it's in gear. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks

 

Or maybe your rear brake is stuck? You or someone you know MUST be able to put the thing in neutral.

 

I think with this type of transmission you shift with the pedal or something. There is no standard shifter lever that I'm aware of. I think it's possible the rear brakes may be locked up but want to ensure it's in neutrel before I take the brakes apart. I was able to rurn the passenger rear wheel by hand. It was tough but it spun around. I haven't tried the drivers rear yet.

 

What do you mean there's no shifter????
The 51 DeSotos were nearly all equipped with Fluid Drive. A few has a regular standard trans. Both had a column mounted shifter. You sorta can't miss it.

 

Have someone put their foot down on the clutch pedal. Then see what you get. I would almost guarantee its a fluid drive.

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I think mine has the fluid drive. There is a little threaded rod sticking out the left side of the steering column that I assume a shifter lever would thread onto. I had someone push the clutch in and still wasn't able to push the car. I don't have any experience with this type of transmission and wasn't sure if I was doing something wrong. I'm starting to lean towards rear brakes are locked up.

 

There SHOULD be a lever on the right side of the steering column, about a foot long. There was when it left the factory........If no column lever, is there a floor shift lever present?

As others have said, the odds are about 99% that you have a Fluid Drive and, if it is, it doesn't matter if it's in gear or not. The fluid coupling has no ability to restrict the cars movement at very low speeds. It will spin the engine over when the car's speed, pushed/pulled or whatever, reaches 12 to 15 miles per hour.

Besides the driver's side rear brake, you need to see if the parking brake is applied or rusted. It's on the back of the transmission, not in the rear brakes. If applied, or rusted up, it would cause the behavior you describe.

A photo of your steering column should be interesting to see.

Ray

 

The little threaded rod, sticking out on the left side, is the thing we like to call, the turn signal switch. The shifter should be self evident

 

If the car has been inactive for a long period, rust, dust & dirt will build up in the drums, causing hard turning. You may want to find someone who knows early Chrysler cars to help before taking anything apart.

 

I have just read some of you other posts. I find it hard to accept a 40 something engineer needs to ask what the fuel pump is. As well as this shifter thread. Is this a joke?

 

No joke, and I apoligize for my ignorance. I just have zero experience with old cars, and not much with newer ones. I'm a process engineer, and work wirh machinery and processes to make prescription drugs. I'm considered to be an expert in a very technical field, but don't have much wrench time on cars.

I'm trying to learn and don't have any issues asking stupid questions if it helps me learn how to build and work on Hot rods. I realize these type of questions could be annoying to those who know the answers, but for those of us that don't know the answers, your knowledge can be very usefull. I spend an hour or two every night searching on the internet and reading posts on the Hamb to learn about cars.

 

Most engineers I have met, including my grandfather are highly intelligent people......but most of them can't use a tool or comprehend simple mechanical tasks without first diagramming it first......no instructions in black and white no comprende! That is why they need techs to finish what they started

now before I get the....I'm and engineer and work on my own stuff outpouring.....you must realize that those types of engineers with mechanical and common sense are far and few apart from the rest of the herd.

 

Thanks hnstray. I didn't know how the fluid coupler worked, so I appreciate that info. I will also look into the parking brake. If I read your post right are you saying the parking brake uses the transmission and is in no way connected to the rear brakes? I never drove a car with a shifter on the column. I wrongly assumed the lever would be on the left side. Apparently the lever I assumed was the blinker is actually the shifter lever, which I do have.

 

I've designed, machined parts, repaired, rebuilt, troubleshot, and built many pieces of equipment used in pharmaceutical companies all over the world. Some processes for drug delivery systems I've worked on have been patented by these companies. In the field I'm in, the work has become very intuitive for me. Old cars are not intuitive for me, but I'm learning.

I agree with your statement that about engineers needing to see things in black and white though. I like to read about something or be shown once before I do it if possible. I'd rather ask a question and learn the right way to do something, than destroy an old part.

 

He could turn the driveshaft so the trans is in neutral and the emergency brake is off. The one wheel is probably stuck from rust. I would pull the car to free the brake.

 

OK. Lets be logical about this. If your car was in gear or if the parking brake was engaged, your driveshaft could not turn when you rotate the wheel. That is obvious. I am assuming you have both rear wheels off the ground. If your driveshaft could not turn and you were turning one rear wheel the opposite wheel would turn in the opposite direction unless the brakes were dragging. So we are back to the stuck brake shoe. Some heat and a few beats with a large soft hammer should free it. No excess bashing as with the exhaust manifold. Or drag it with something bigger and it probably will break free. Are you sure this is serious? I read the fuel pump/ steering mechanism post and wasn't convinced.

 

The parking brake has no direct relationship to the rear brakes. It is mounted on the rear of the transmission. On a car of your vintage, it is a 'drum' of about 7" diameter with an external flexible brake band around it's circumference and linkage to tighten that band to immobilize the driveshaft when parking. It is cable operated by the parking brake lever/handle under the dash, I think on the left side, but possibly nearer the middle, I don't recall it's exact position on that year Mopar.

Ray

 

You can load it on a trailer with one wheel dragging; a little grease on the ramp will help if it really hangs it up. Let the next guy worry about it.

 

I'm still serious Rich. I'm just trying to get the car moving. I wouldn't waste my time and yours asking stupid questions unless I needed some help. I've already learning alot from the responses and I appreciate those who have taken the time to respond. Rich your logical way of explaining things made alot of sense to me and now I know a little bit more how these things work.

hnstray thanks for explaining the parking brake as well. I've never heard of that type of setup. I guess my original mission of learning something was accomplished, even after looking like a retard.
I will look into the brake system when I get home.

 

OOPS.............brain out to lunch..........some of you caught the "driveshaft was turning" and I overlooked that.....

All is not in vain however, at least the OP now knows something about his parking brake..

Ray

 

Ray do many of the old cars use that type of emergency brake. The only rear brakes I've messed with had cables going back to the drums.

 

They were common principally on Chrysler Corporation vehicles from the '30s through the '60s as a general range of application. Ford and General Motors did not typically use this style on passenger and pickup models. However, that general style brake on the transmission is common to many/most/all larger trucks and commercial vehicles for many, many years. Some variations were internal expanding shoe drum brakes vs the earlier external band I described for your car.

Ray

 

gaga4toyz, there is a very good chance that the wheel will break loose once the car is pulled on pavement. This is a common problem on cars that sit for a while. I once bought a '54 Pontiac that had been in good, dry indoor storage for about 20 years and one rear wheel was locked up from rust. I bought a '51 Chevy out of a field that had all 4 wheels locked up. The Pontiac just needed dragged a few feet on pavement to break loose. The Chevy I jacked up each wheel one at a time and tried to turn them by hand while whacking the wheel with a big hammer. (I had no plans to use the wheels or brakes so I did not care if I bent or broke something.)
A better approach is to jack it up, take off the wheel, and start tapping the drum while either trying to turn it by hand or pull it off. Either way, my bet is you'll get a pile of rust and crud falling out.

As a side note, the internet is great but have you considered buying a vintage manual or two? Chiltons and Motor manuals are easy to find these days thanks to eBay, etc., and they cover all makes/models within a specific year range (about 8 years, if I recall). I have leafed through them just for education and entertainment from time to time. I have 3 or 4 and between them I'm covered from the 1930s up to the 1960s (with a big gap in the 1940s).
They won't tell you exactly how to unstick a DeSoto brake that's been sitting for decades because the cars were new when the manuals were written, but they WILL show and tell you all the parts in the brake system and how to disassemble it. Ditto with the shifter, etc. Any repair you ever need to do on a car, they'll have step-by-step instructions on how to do it, often with diagrams or illustrations.
You might also consider "Cars of the Fabulous '50s" which gives a surprising amount of general year-by-year info about all American cars made in the 1950s.

My father-in-law was an electrical engineer who knew little about cars. Once I figured out how to talk to him he took to it like a duck to water.

 

Hi Jason..If you find the need to remove the rear brake drums,,,Buy a "GOOD" puller or you will never get them off..
The big nut holding those hubs will come off easy,but to get the drum off the tapered,keyed axle is plain hell..
Bob

 

Thanks Atomickustom. I'm from the show me state as well. I got the Desoto in a trade and decided to take the visor and a few other parts I needed from it to put on my 1950 Dodge Coronet. I ordered a manual for the Coronet and I'm waiting for it to arrive. I willing be reading through it from cover to cover to learn as much as I can about it. Another Hamb member suggested I narrow my focus down to a couple of projects which I thought was a good idea. So it was time for the Desoto to get ready to go. With the cold weather starting to hit, I was just looking for some quick advice to get this car rolling. It's sitting outside and working on the brakes in the cold wasn't sounding like a good idea.

 

If it's Fluid Drive, and that's highly likely, there is NO mechanical connection to the engine through the transmission. Therefore, a locked engine or a stuck clutch will have NO impediment to the wheels turning. The only outside influence on the wheels turning could be the parking brake, but that has been eliminated by observing the driveshaft turning.

Therefore, the most logical impediment to the rear wheels turning is the rear brake on that wheel. And the friction of wheel vs pavement may indeed free it up enough to roll.

If it is Just you trying to push the car, it might be just too much car. These are heavy beasties, not prone to moving easily.

Cosmo

 

Thanks for the tip Bob. Good news on the Ford I got from you, there are alot of good parts on there. Even the floorboards are in good shape.

Plan for the night is to pull the Desoto around with my truck and hopefully break things loose. If that doesn't help, I'm going to jack up the rear of the car, take a dead blow or rawhide hammer and tap on the drum while I spin it around. Hopefully it will brake things loose.

I already have the transmission out of the Dodge coronet so I'm going to take a look at that parking brake setup.

 

I do have a tendency to give more advice than asked for. Occupational hazard of being a teacher. Sorry. Just to clarify, when I said "drag" the car I meant tow it with another vehicle. Cosmo's right: there is probably no way it will move by hand.
Focusing on just one project at a time is pretty much the only way to get anything done.

 

Cosmo I thought about the size of the car as well. It is a beast. The Desoto is very similar to my Dodge coronet and my wife and I can push it around with ease.

 

^^^^^^^^^not with a wheel locked up, I bet

Ray