I finally took an afternoon... and a torch and started removing my manifold bolts one by one on my New Yorker so I could change the gaskets so she would quit sounding like a Spitfire airplane instead of a quiet Chrysler I8. When I removed the intake I noticed a sizable crack all the way across the manifold right in front of where the intake bolts on to it. I leaned in for a better look and the bottom part of the manifold dropped slightly and the rest stayed in place. My father has enlightened me on his ordeal trying to get his CJ-5 exhaust manifold crack welded. I am now at the understanding that they are a very week point in these engines and are very hard to fix and even harder to find!!! Anyone know where I could find one, fix mine or have one fabricated for less than the entire car is worth?!? I'm really wanting to maintain stock operation and look as much as I can at this point. Any help would be greatly appreciated. All general google, ebay, bing etc. searches have failed me. Also, in case I actually get to drive her again, has anyone ever mixed kerosene in their gas to lower octane in order to lower over all running engine temperature? I read a guy did a 3:1 gas to kerosene for thousands of miles in a '32 Buick with great results.
A good welder can fix a cracked exhaust manifold, your father's experience notwithstanding. I am not a good welder but even I have welded several tractor manifolds that have held together. Shop it around a few welding shops before giving up on that approach.
Thanks. I have always heard cast cannot be welded well or with any hopes of lasting. I think they finally got my dad's fixed but they had to heat the manifold first. Somewhat reluctantly my father called and asked about my issue on my behalf. Apparently they are using more nickle when they weld and it expands much better with the cast iron. I haven't had time to finish pulling off the manifold completely but I am pretty sure it is completely broken and not just cracked. When I called the guy seemed very confident that it could be mended but wasn't sure how long it would take. At $70 an hour I wouldn't expect it to cost more than $140 but most my welding experience has been little things here and there and fabricating make shift armor from sheet steel. None of which require a mastery of metal melting. During my inquiring 2 people so far have mentioned it could simply be braised but from what I know about braising it doesn't seem like it would hold up. Any thoughts? Luckily with my current schedule (3 classes, 2 kids, full time work, wife in grad school etc.) I'm guessing it will take me 2 weeks or so to muster up the 20 minutes it will take for me to drag the torch out and get the remaining 5 nuts off holding the manifold on before I can get a really good look at it so I have plenty of time to research and plan. Is there any negative impact on removing the exhaust flap from the manifold? I've read where guys remove them in order to keep them from getting stuck and cracking the manifolds.
Brazing is a sort of old school solution for this ... good for lots of other things, of course ... and the old rule that cast iron cannot be welded is now completely obsolete. Almost anything can be welded now. Good luck.
I have had success both brazing and welding exhaust manifolds. Straight eight manifolds have a hard life because of heat expansion. If possible have it done by someone who knows what he is doing, can clamp it to a flat surface and pre heat the whole manifold. When you get done bolt the intake and exhaust manifolds together and have them surfaced, bolt to the engine not too tight so they can move around a little and you should be ok. Do not over tighten, if it starts to leak install new gaskets.
Posts #5 & #6 above are both good advice. There are several brands of good cast iron welding rod on the market these days. It will no doubt require some degree of pre-heating, and controlled post-weld cooling to prevent cracking. But these are things a good commercial welding shop knows and is prepared to do. As for price........your manifold is made of 'unobtainium'......so, price be damned! Ray
As for price........your manifold is made of 'unobtainium'......so, price be damned! Ray is correct on this! The L8 exhaust is, at least in my view, a very expensive item whether buying or selling. I think that you will see prices in the $700 range for a good one. If you find a cheap one, grab it!! I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that 'anything' can be welded. Some castings are porous enough that carbon finds its way into the pores to such a depth that it contaminates the weld. The problem is that it looks like you have a clean surface but it really isn't and you won't know until it cools. As for brazing, remember that the brass is just laying on the surface and bridging the gap so considerable build-up is needed. When you have everything off the engine and on the floor post a couple more pics. .
Thanks for the info guys. I keep an eye out for parts when I feel I would actually be able to buy them. Saw a guy selling "2 goofy looking transmissions" for $75 each or $100 for both. They were both fluid drives! Unfortunately he had sold them not knowing exactly what they were. Here are the two pics I snapped when I pulled it off the other day. Sorry about the pic, didn't have much time. Hoping to be able to get a better pic with an actual camera to post and for my records.
This one is a bit better. Appears to be pretty simple as these things can go, as in the break is not around a bend or on a mounting point. I wasn't sure if I should try to separate the 3 pieces or just send it as is. I am going to have my dad set up his little blaster to clean it up as suggested. Saving money is always good!! Does anyone have any idea about removing the exhaust flap? I do have new gaskets and stud set so I'm hoping all will go well on that end. I just noticed my stud kit is missing a few studs and has 2 really long studs that I'm not sure where they are supposed to go. Is it completely necessary to replace all the studs with nuts that required torching??
I wouldn't say it is impossible to separate the three sections of the manifold, but I wouldn't try it unless some trustworthy authority says you need to. Likewise , the heat riser flap. That flap should be freed up if it is stuck, but trying to disassemble it would likely do more damage than good. All these parts are capable of sustaining serious heat in normal use, so the preheat for the welding, while it may be higher temp, shouldn't pose a problem......IMO, of course. I defer to a quality welder on all points. Oh....'re studs.....if your studs are in pretty good shape, not eroded significantly by rust, and the threads are undamaged.....chase the threads with a die...I see not reason to change them. You could easily end up breaking some off at the block surface and have to drill them out. If they are visibly 'bad', well, there you go.......One more suggestion....use brass nuts when reinstalling the manifold. Hope it all works out well for you. Ray
1. Manifold can be welded or brazed with GOOD RESULTS, if the guy doing the job is qualified. We did it, time and time again with our "split exhaust manifolds" on our Chevy sixes.. 2. Exhaust flap is a heat riser, it's there to heat carb ..... why eliminate it? Make it workable and keep it. 3. Mixing kerosene to lower engine operating temp ..... but why? If engine is in good working order, you don't need or want to do this. I've been with these old cars for so many years, would not consider mixing anything to lower engine operation temps. Not necessary and there's no problem with engine temps with 87 octane. They just run fine.
I was thinking the same thing on the studs, unfortunately one did break off which brought out the torch on the rest. It just so happens to be the farthest back on the block as well. The plan is to weld, heat and hope! The new studs came with brass nuts and it looks like I'll have to chase most of the exhaust studs. I had read that some remove the exhaust flaps just in case they were to get stuck and build up to much heat causing the manifold to crack. But mine moves freely and I am hesitant to alter the car anymore than absolutely necessary. She's still 6v despite the advice of many to convert to 12v. As far as lowering engine temps, my best guess is that the tube running behind the water pump along the exhaust valves is rusted and the coolant is not flowing as well as it should. I can drive fine (around 165) but if I make more than 2 short stops anywhere she'll start getting up above 180 and she doesn't seem to like running that warm. With no time or money at the moment to put into replacing the coolant distribution tube, lowering operating temp seems to be my next best option. I'm always open to suggestions. I've learned a lot about this car but I've come up with 2 questions for every answer I find! Judging by what the block looks like after cleaning someone has put some time and care into this car in the past.
're the "two questions for every answer".....that's par for the course. The more we learn, the more we realize there is more behind that. I am going through a learning curve at present on an OT (off topic for the HAMB) project and that has been exactly my experience....as it has with every new realm I've explored. I like it though....stimulates the mind, expands our horizons and capabilities. 're cooling......yes, the water distribution tube on Mopar inline engines is vital to proper cooling. But, you also may have some radiator blockage/clogging, or both. Also, engine timing can noticeably affect engine temps. Sediment in the block water jackets can be an issue on old engines too. I've used a high pressure washer to flush the block of some engines that weren't getting overhauled so no hot tanking, and it cleaned out quite a bit of sludge and debris. Same for the radiator. I would remove it though, and turn it upside down and 'back flush' it. You might inquire at a radiator shop, if there is still such a thing in your area, about a professional radiator cleaning. There is some risk in that, however, as old radiators have been known to leak after a thorough cleaning. Ray
I have brazed exhaust manifolds by V-ing the crack and filling it with bronze. The crack should be V-d for good penetration anyway. Your break is kind of unusual, it looks as if there was too much weight or stress on the manifold as if the exhaust system was too heavy, or had to be forced into position.
If the water tube is corroded, the coolant will stream up the front of the engine, causing the front to run cool and the back to run hot. You can detect this with an electronic temp sensor. They cost about $30 to $40. More likely the rad is clogged or water pump impeller rusted away. I would blow the rad clean from behind with an air hose, or vacuum from the front. Check the temp. Run some cooling system cleaner through it, or some CLR calcium lime and rust remover. Incidentally I had a 49 Chrysler Windsor that overheated because the rad was full of mouse nests! Someone must have left the rad cap off over the winter. I had to take the rad off, turn it upside down and flush it with a garden hose to get it all out. If you ever see any fluff floating around in the rad, there is plenty more stuck in the tubes.
I also enjoy the pursuit of knowledge. I know I'm going it write because I'm finding less and less people that know more than I do about this car! I drained the radiator and block and filled it with water and added radiator cleaner as was suggested. After this I drained and flushed the block, radiator, heater core and filled back up with water. I then drove it for a week or so and drained and flushed again. I did this every weekend or so for about two months. I then put in distilled water, coolant, water wetter and temporarily bypassed my heater core with a hose to notice a world of difference. Now it is acting as I described. I did not think about a high pressure hose or back flushing the radiator though. We do have at least one good radiator shop here in Huntsville, the same shop my grandfather used. I will wait to have it professionally cleaned until I know I have the money to buy a new one if things go sideways. She was flowing fast enough to not cool the engine at all when it started getting hot until I found out there was no thermostat and installed a 160. It takes about 5 minutes to get to 165 and then stays there unless I'm moving too slow or make multiple stops. I also noticed that when coasting down hills the temp will rise a bit if I don't raise the RPM's as I coast. I originally thought it was just the low running RPM. Could be a flow issue though. I have been planning on checking the timing as well. The list keeps getting longer, but so does the list of things I have already done!! Before I know it I'll just have seals and vent glass left until I send her for paint and re-chrome.
Rusty I checked the engine temp on several occasions after driving and it only showed about a 5 degree difference if that between the front, middle and back of the block, head and different places on the manifold. I wasn't 100% if that was enough but it convinced me the distribution tube was not failing to the point of causing drastic temperature changes from front to back. I may try CLR unless the radiator flush/cleaners have similar in them already. While I'm waiting to get the manifold welded I may check out the water pump. Most everything I've dug into on this car has been in great shape other than some rust caused by not replacing weather seals. On my last flush the water coming out was almost completely clear but that doesn't mean all blockage is out. I thought that was an odd break as well unless it was just a weak spot in the design but I hadn't read anything to that effect. I will check the exhaust to see how stiff it is mounted and how far off it is once the manifold is back on. Anything I need to look for other than common sense stuff for that? i.e. if the exhaust is 2 inches from being aligned with the manifold. I would be slightly more than annoyed if it were to break again after I got everything back together.
"She was flowing fast enough to not cool the engine at all when it started getting hot until I found out there was no thermostat and installed a 160. It takes about 5 minutes to get to 165 and then stays there unless I'm moving too slow or make multiple stops. I also noticed that when coasting down hills the temp will rise a bit if I don't raise the RPM's as I coast." Sounds like your cooling system is perfect. Naturally it will be above 160 because the thermostat is not open until then. How high above is the question. If your cooling system has no pressure cap up to 212 is ok but I would start to get concerned if it got close to 200. Modern cars with pressure systems run 200 or more all the time. When idling in traffic, or when pulling a long hill on a hot day the temp might climb but, this is normal. Your temp difference front to rear sounds perfect as well. I don't know why you think something is wrong.
I don't know why your manifold broke like it did. I would think about adding a a brace between the engine and exhaust pipe. It looks to me as if 50 + years of vibration might have cracked it or the stress between a rocking engine on its rubber mounts and an exhaust pipe mounted too rigidly to the frame. My first thought was to weld braces on the manifold but I rejected this idea as just transferring the stress somewhere else on the manifold. A brace to the engine block would be better.
^^^^^^^^^^^Indeed, many cars had a strap or hanger from the bell housing to the exhaust pipe. I think that is a good suggestion. With such a bracket attached to the engine, it would ensure the pipe moves with the engine and reduce stress on the manifold.
Rusty, The reason I lean towards a problem is that if I make stops during the day the temp will slowly raise above 185 and will not drop back down to the "normal" ~170. When she gets to 185+ she starts running rough and I typically can't press the accelerator past half way without spitting and sputtering. Could just be a carb adjustment being exaggerated by higher temp. I just dropped off my manifold to be welded and decided to pull the radiator and water pump. I back flushed and pressure washed the radiator and the pump looked great. As an unexpected surprise the water distribution tube looked new and had no rust on it! The more I dig into this car the more I'm convinced what little I've had to repair was more due to a short period of neglect after a complete rebuild. It looked like the pipe has a hard mount to the front of the tanny or the back of the block. I'll see if there was a good spot to mount a bracket from the exhaust side of the manifold to the block. I'm guessing the joint bolt should work as a mount.
What they said........braze it up. It's old school today. Perfectly fine way to fix it. Most people today are used to ordering new, or devising an over the top means of fixing something that a good radiator shop or YOU can fix handily. $20 worth of materials, and you can spit on it when you're done. Feels good too. I have an engine style notorious for cracking the driver's side manifold. One of my first DIY's on the car was exactly this.......only because everyone convinced me to look for another one....which did not exist without the awesome crack......or of course the 700 dollar set of Hooker Super Comps that was pretty much the only OTHER choice to have. Made me want to puke. Lesson #1 in DADS ARE ALWAYS RIGHT. He said from day one....BRAZE IT. After a year of looking....that damn brazed manifold lasted 40,000 miles of cruising and hard charging. Still works good today...of course the motor and all other original stuff is bagged on an engine stand, but that my friend is ANOTHER STORY.
They said weld but they either meant braze or changed their mind. Either way it's the best $75 I've spent in a long time!! While I'm cleaning up the intake I pulled my valve covers off the side. A good amount of sludge I get to deal with now. Might not be too bad just worse than im use to seeing. I've heard everything from harsh chemicals to mixing kerosene with oil and idling for 15 minutes, change and repeat. Will post pics later tonight
Please DO NOT pour any kerosene or other solvent like substance in your engine and run it AT ALL! Surely you must realize all that sludge and carbon build up is very abrasive material and you will be running it through the engine bearings, in particular, and around other moving parts in general. That is a recipe for disaster to your engine. The fact is, that stuff in there, unsightly as it is, is harmless as long as it stays in place. Or, if you remove it completely by wiping, scraping or vacuuming it, then you minimize the damage that can be done. The most useful operation to perform on a sludged up engine. Is to remove the oil pan and clean the accumulated sludge from there. If the engine had been run on leaded fuel for many years (decades)' you can count on having a heavy paste like gray sludge in the bottom. The danger with the pan sludge, unlike the valve chamber, is that the oil pickup tube for the oil pump gets clogged and reduces or blocks oil flow. Another disaster in the making. Ray
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