Technical Chev hot start/hi-torq mini/Ford sol?

Ok I thought I had this figured out. Read a ton of threads here on how to wire in the Ford solenoid to the Chevy starter to help with long tube headers and hot start issues (my starter finally died).

I started out with just looking for a decent high torque mini starter. Went to Summit, checked here, read the reviews. I really wasn't satisfied with what I read on the aftermarket starters, but I found a thread here that sourced a stock Chevy mini starter. A 2000 3500 truck with a 7.4 L. So I bought one of those and the correct starter bolts and installed it.

I'm also going to go with the Ford solenoid. I don't want to have to mess with this again. And because I tend to over think wiring, I read a bunch more threads on other sites about it. I'm thinking OK I'm good.

Made a copper jumper for my Chevy solenoid. Took a break for lunch and hopped on the computer to quadruple check things out, lol.

I find a thread on a Chevelle forum that says if you are using a high torque mini starter you can not use the jumper because the mini starter has a perm magnet! I don't even know what this is ... does the stock Chevy mini starter have this? Do I need to rethink this wiring?

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this ... thanks!

Edit ... found some more info, something about the perm mag allows a little starter run on.

 

I had problems with my 55, and after doing some thinking and measuring, discovered that the solenoid was not getting enough voltage from the ignition switch (the purple S wire). I added a small bosch type relay, and it fixed it. I later went to the small GM starter like you got, to save some weight.

The little starter does appear to be a PM type starter.

 

I have had nothing but sweet starts, since I got my after market mini. It was adjustable, so I could angle the solenoid from hot headers. Which has never even been a problem, but I moved it anyway.

I also read about the Chevy mini, but the after market starter was actually cheaper.

 

I did read a little about adding a small relay, but I liked the idea of having the Ford sol out there for ease of maint if I wanted to remote bump or start my engine. Plus ease of wiring in accessories.

As far as cost, my main concern was to not have to deal with this again. I really want this truck to be very reliable so I can use it as a truck while we are putting together our next project. Next summer this will be taken down again so it can get painted. I do like the red oxide primer look (kinda surprised myself lol) but a shiny paint job is going to make me happier.

I have found some more on wiring it in with the mini high torque.

 

I guess I don't like the idea of adding a big heavy relay, when there's already a big heavy relay built into the starter. KISS as much as possible.

 

From another forum -

If you try to power your GM PM starter with a single cable (like a Ford) you'll experience delayed drive disengagement. The problem stems from a PM starter momentarily acting like a generator after battery power is removed, keeping the solenoid energized through the "jumper wire" for 1 - 2 seconds, after the engine starts. The consequences are really annoying!

The only way to avoid the problem is to wire it like a Chevy!

Here's why:
Ford energizes their solenoid and starter motor at the same time through a shared battery cable that is switched by a remote relay. The Ford solenoid serves the single purpose of engaging the starter drive with the ring gear. Ford uses a single-step process. The magnetic field that moves the solenoid is the samemagnetic field that turns the motor. A PM motorcannot generate enough power to run itself.

GM energizes their solenoid through a dedicated circuit that is electrically isolated from the starter motor. On GM, the solenoid doubles as the starter relay. So, the solenoid engages the drive with the ring gear, then closes a high-current switch to energize the starter motor. GM uses a dual-step process. The magnetic field that moves the solenoid is independent from the magnetic field that turns the motor. A PM motor cangenerate enough power to keep the GM solenoid energized if jumpered directly to the power lead of the solenoid. Confused?

Bottom line, use Powermaster's philosophy: Wire a Ford like a Ford, and a GM like a GM.

So there you go-

Like squirrel says-
The main problem is the L O N G starter trigger wire doesn't carry enough juice when it gets hot. The Secondary issue is cooking your starter from the headers.

With a ford solenoid you send all the voltage thru a big ass cable. Not a problem on big starters But on the PM motors its drags a bit or delayed disengagement and sounds like scary shit is happening for a second or two.

 

Thanks for that, I appreciate everyone's input. I just found a diagram on a Nova forum that shows how to wire the kind of starter I have now and use the Ford solenoid.

 

So bring it over here

 

http://novaresource.org/starter.htm

 

that's crazy....a small relay will do exactly the same thing....I guess the cost is similar, but why add the huge relay when you're using it as if it were a small relay?

 

And last longer.^^^

 

Small relays are not traditional

 

Having the starter work right, every time, is not traditional either. I remember finding a hill to park on when I was young.

 

I always bypass the stock solenoid on the starter and use a ford solenoid mounted away from the heat. My underhood temps are probably quite a bit higher though. I used to use the stock Chevy setup, but after one time of my car not starting when I needed it to (Sitting sideways on the backstretch with the field coming at me) because of a hot solenoid I switched to the ford style with the jumper. Have never had the problem again.

 

I added the Ford solenoid to my pickup, and it solved the problem. Had I considered it in more detail, I might have gone with a smaller relay, but went with the "everybody says" method, which worked exactly as advertised.

 

Thanks for the input I am dealing with the same issues.

 

The things we did when we were young, lack of funds, lack of experience, but we had ingenuity lol

 

I never did like the way Chevy put all the hot wire connections down on the starter, so when I rewired the Chevy in my Lincoln, I used a late model Ford firewall relay. It works like a Ford solenoid, only the wires are on the end instead of the sides. I still connected the starter to the hot side of the relay along with all the chassis hots. I connected the Chevy starter solenoid wire to the other large post so it gets a full 12 volts through that wire, and 12 volts through the battery cable. The starter wire from the switch goes to the small post, and when it has 12 volts, it activates the relay which activates the starter solenoid. You can find them on late model Fords with the small PM style starters.

 

Well we finally got around to finishing this. First starter we put on the solenoid face crumbled when I tightened up the battery side. Got another one with no problems from Auto Zone, I figured it would be a fight, but no.

It really is a pain to take the starter off this with the long tube headers. Just taking the headers loose at the heads didn't give us enough room to get the bolts out, had to disconnect them totally from the rest of the exhaust too. Anyway after much BS the boys and I got everything back together. Rewired everything correctly the FIRST TIME lol. She started right up. Let it sit for a couple of days to see if there was any weird battery drain or anything, and she started right up again.

So the project is back on track ... finally =)

 

Well its been several months with zero start problems, until yesterday. I ran in to town to grab a car wash mitt. Hopped in the truck when I was done, just that clicking sound you get when the battery is kinda dead or you have a loose connection somewhere. My BIL came down with his jump box and the truck started right up.

Drove home with no problems. Parked it in the shop, shut her down, tried to start it up, same problem.

So today I went out there and put a meter on the battery, almost 12.6 volts, but wont start, just clicks. Jump it with cables and starts right up. So before I go any further maybe someone can give me a hint or two on where to start with this odd problem.

 

Starters tight to headers get cooked.
Solenoids get cooked too.

Probably a repeat of your original problem

 

If its starting with cables, its an amperage deal. Back when Optima batteries were good, I would have the dreaded low amp click with a regular auto parts store battery, install an optima, problem always went away.

 

For sure its amperage,
But why does it need more amps today than it did yesterday.

Battery giving up
Cable corrosion
Starter failing

 

Could be any one of them. Try putting a different/newer battery in and eliminate that. Check all cables/ends. Could be solenoid/starter failing, and if the other two dont fix it, then youve isolated it. I'm sure we have ALL had a battery at one time or another work fine in the driveway, then fail at the furthest point from home.
.

 

Check voltage at the starter first off to see what you get right at the starter post. What size battery cables are you using? and how long are they? how are they wired and run? Every break in the cable adds resistance, so the more connectors you have, the more resistance you get. Your Ford solenoid just added three more to the cable, one on each cable end, and the contacts in the solenoid.

How is the ground cable run? is it a direct cable to the motor, or does it go to frame first? I run all my ground cables right to the starter mounting bolt, then back out to the frame and body.

While checking voltage, how much is getting to the solenoid? how big of a wire are you using? Is the key switch in good shape?

Has the battery been load checked yet? Bad cells can still read 12+ volts, but under a load drop big time. Some if not most battery checkers can also check starter load, might not be a bad idea to check that if you can get working enough to start several times.

A friend had a '54 Pontiac inline 8 that used up 6v batteries like mad, every year or so he had to replace it. I made new 4-0 cables with soldered ends and ran them directly to the starter, one to the starter solenoid, the other to the mounting bolt. The same battery was still working six years later!

Joe

 

All of the wiring and cables are new and correctly sized. This was a frame off build, and probably a little over grounded all around (if that's a thing lol). Check out the beginning of where this thread started to see how it is wired up. The key switch is new. It is keyed to a push button start. Starter is new, but remanned. Alternator is new too.

All I have done so far before really digging in to it is stick a meter on the battery. I didn't realize a battery can meter out correctly but still fail. The battery is not new, Ill take it in and have it tested. Its the easiest place to start. Just seems odd that it wasn't a gradual start thing and just hit out of the blue.

Thanks for the ideas so far. Ill work on it as I have time and report back for the curious =)

 

New build. Did you powder coat the frame?

 

Frame was spray painted and every area that was used for ground had paint ground down to bare metal. Star washers, and a little dielectric grease used to help prevent corrosion.

 

Long story/short - Check the Battery cables.

VR&C.

 

Battery cables are brand new. When I got this truck the battery was mounted under the box on the frame. I moved it back to the firewall mounted box. I like easy access to the battery, and prefer much shorter cables.

Wont have time to have the battery checked until the weekend.