Technical New Model A Banger block Poll

As you may or may not know 427designer (Tod Buttermore) has cast his first sample Model A block and machining is either coming soon or has already started.
Here is the link to the thread. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=616056

Since he can go many ways with this he is looking for a starting point for future production, hense this poll.

PLEASE TAKE QUESTIONS/COMMENTS ABOUT THE BLOCK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD.

 

Ill delete my comment. Good Luck!

 

I would like a A block with b friendly interior and 5 cam bearings. This would count as my "A with AR cam bearings choice above.

My others would be:

1 or 2 Aluminum (price dependent)

1 or 2 Don't care what the outside looks like. Inside has full pressure, pinned steel B caps, ports in block capable of more modifications then the stock B block.

1 or 2 Don't care what the outside looks like. Inside has full pressure, pinned steel B caps, no ports.

.

 

x two !!

 

considering the above two price dependent

 

I would like a B size insides with 5 mains for crank and cam.

 

Since I am restricted to specific rules currently racing, the Iron doesn't appeal to me.
However, My wish is alum, 5 mains, added material for larger cam bearings, no water, no ports and no bolt holes anywhere.

John

 

A B friendly interior would be all I ever need! Although 5 bearing cranks and cams sure sound sexy, who am I kidding I can't afford to go racing. I would just like to build a hot little street motor to romp around town with. An aluminum block sounds pretty cool though. You could polish everything!!! Intake, head, block, valve cover!!! That would be sooo sexy!!!

 

On my "wish list" is a B friendly motor in first position; this would save me the trouble of a salvage job of an incorrectly inserted but otherwise good block - too bad about thus one. Second position would be a 5 main bearing crank & cam, but this one blends into the OTHER column where an aluminum block with 5x5 mains, pinned caps and no ports - just water passages to cool it, because I am planning on running a 4 port cross flow and stock ports would just get in the way. In the end, all of us seem to be striving for a B' based internal but stronger block with full oil pressure & pinned caps for inserts..... everything else sort of fits into place once you have that part accomplished.

 

I would like a somewhat stock appearing exterior. It does not need to be perfect stock appearing, but would want someone just glancing at it to assume it's 80 years old, nothing fancy. It has to bolt in place of a stock engine with no mods.

Internally definitely have provisions for internal pressure oiling, inserts, B friendly, pinned main caps. I would be less interested in 5 mains or cams unless a affordable crank was available.

I'm like Tiny I just want a hot street motor with some upgrades to be more reliable and modern. I don't need NASA technology, but I would like to step into this century at least.

as far as how many I would purchase? only 1. Though I can see the possibility of building another banger powered car in the future so that number could change.

 

I want an aluminum block with pressure oiling and pinned caps
5 mains would be awesome too, but it depends on price

tk

 

Well, this is all very helpful. I am going to get a dry erase board and put up the results as they come in and keep track of just how many of what I need to be looking at. As I count it right now there appears to be around 67 potential customers/blocks to make. AM I reading this poll correctly?

Tod

 

Likely not to be a popular option, but if I could pick any options to buy for myself, it would be an internally and externally stock B block with more meat in the crack prone areas of the B block.
Next would be the stock appearing A block with B friendly internals.

 

My purchase of a B-friendly A block would hinge greatly on price.

Like several others, I will NOT be racing! I'd just like to have a dependable banger for romping around!

 

I should ad that a fuel pump provision like the b's would be awesome. So maybe I want a b external.

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Absolutely stock appearance on the outside. Upgraded inside. Five mains. Counter balanced crank. Inserted small block Chevy size mains, throws, and crank seal. Full pressure oil in block and crank. Replaceable cam bearings.

 

Brett,

According to my builder we should be able to offer these within the windows alluded to earlier in the thread. I want to make as much as I reasonably can, but I also want to sell product and allow customers to be happy with price and quality. Like all business owners, I'm in business to make money, not friends. I don't need alot of money but my shop sure seems to suck it up!

Tod

 

My preference would be a B clone outside. Inside....well....the way I look at it, most folks would want an affordable street upgrade. But, if you are going to go for a 5 bearing engine, I would go ahead and beef it up to full race capability, as I don't see much reason not to.

Basically, considering what this product is going to cost, I personally would want 6K RPM strength in a block that would take very close inspection to tell from original Henry iron.

 

Hey Carter,
I, like MOST B block owners, know exactly what you are speaking of , when you say...'crack prone areas of the B block' !
Be aware tho, that Tod says that THIS B will be made of same metal mix that he uses in making Cleveland 351 and 427 blocks (?) successfully. Henry made the DECK of the B way tooo thin,eh...that's way we have the deck cracks that we experience and have to scrap block or fix it..$$$.

Henry also used the cast iron that you can cut with a knife ! I'm thinking that you will not be able to do that to Tod's metal blocks. But, a THICKER deck will allow for some work on it without the fear that I experience with the old iron.

 

Yes. My decks are .500. 1/8 of an inch thicker.

Tod

 

My choice goes to the stock outside A with B friendly internals.
But I'll take whatever will be made ;-)
Thanks for all the work,
Eddy


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Unless I'm reading this wrong, I count 79 blocks of various kinds.

Tod

 

what about moving the water outlet on the drivers side so it is at the back of the block to help with cooling those to cylinders?

 

It wouldn't look stock, and it would be a MASSIVE amount of rework.

Tod

 

Yeah, I was just throwing it out there... I was just reading up about the cooling systems last night and how the back two cylinders run hotter. Not a big deal. Obviously it works. All you had to say was MASSIVE. :thumbup:

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It's ok to throw stuff out, because we are trying to test the waters to see what we want to keep and what we want to throw back.

I'm probably going to cut another half pattern for the B block look on the port side. I will also use the tail of the B block for the B crank use in the A blocks. Steve Hackel (spelling?) asked me about that today and I think I will make an either/or set up to do that. As soon as I finish the water jacket core plug for the dual plug (per cylinder) aluminum 7 to 1 compression head I am doing for Snyder, I will start cutting the B block side and make additional options for the B innards. This pattern equipment will be able to make just about any combination we want!

Tod

 

Hey Tod,
That is really GOOD news !
Now, from what your see , so far, in this informal poll....I.e.- 79 , is that 'good' news to your business senses ?

NOTE:
The talk, above, about heat transfer (lack thereof) problems around the rear cylinder of the A/B block is real. It is also compounded by 80 year old blocks that have rust (and sand) in that area, despite cleaning efforts. Also, poor circulation of water from obstructions and design flaw from what I heard/read. Will the new block of different metal leave residual sand pockets in that area of casting ??? IMO, since the new block is NEW, the rust subject will be MOOT...but will the 'hot spot' be there anyhow ...due to copying original engineering ???
I can speak to the basic improvement of cooling...from the standpoint of NEW block and no rust....because I'm running NEW block/no rust. I'm here to tell you that my engine never overheats, even in the hot socal summer heat ! I run a NOS Russian B block...and it's nice,eh. With that said, I just can't wait to run a NEW 5by5 ..block of a different metal..by Tod !

FYI...Guys have tried to alleviate/deal with the hot spot at the back of the A/B block, by drilling/tapping the back end of the HEAD and running piping to the pump area. Don't know if this is a remedy or Band-Aid ? However, I will point out that a guy back east makes a plug/area provision on back of his head for such mod. IMO, looks junky and heads are tooo expensive to make look junky,eh

 

80ish is a very good start, in my opinion.

I'm not sure what can be done about any cooling problems inherent in the design if it is kept stock looking. I suppose we will just have to get one running and see how it does in the cooling department.

By the way, what are you doing up at this late hour??? It's 12:30. Go to bed!

Tod

 

A historical note: Back in the nineties, an aluminum A/B style block was offered to the public by Donovan Engineering. They referred to it as 'The Model D'. It was on display at the Father's Day Roadster Show (sorry, I can't remember the exact year maybe 1992 or 1993) included in the display were blocks, cranks, and rods, in addition to a running engine in Ed's pickup. He told me, with a grin, that it would keep up with traffic on the Freeway. (The handout was a reprint of an article published in the August 1992 American Rodder --- that has many of the particulars.) It is still one of the most innovative offerings I've ever seen; pressure-fed oiling, a crank from 4340 billet steel that rode on five 'readily available Chevrolet main bearings'. I am quoting from the article. 'The new block weighs just 70 pounds.' '...hefty connecting rods have an off-set for cam clearance...' While it was offered with a flathead and valves-in-block, it was designed to easily convert to any Over Head Valve conversion those who build and race these motors know and love. And, while it looked very similar to a stock engine, the major visual difference was the intake manifold, as porting was re-engineered for performance. 'The twin-tunnel intake manifold uses either Winfield or, with an adaptor (sic), Stromberg carbs.' I'm sure these engines are now museum pieces, or owned by collectors. If I only had the money at the time I'd have bought one on the spot. I saw the possibilities. I only hope the current project by 427 designer follows some of the ground already covered by this innovative piece of engineering. Oh yeah, it had 201 cubic inches --- 'dry sleeve liners ....of hearty ductile iron, boasting bore and stroke dimensions of 3 7/8 inches by 4 1/4 inches.' It also had an optional dual cab manifold. I still have day dreams about it. One of those 'when I hit the jack-pot kind'. I'd run mine on the street. Carl

 

I know that this is probably not the right topic, but I'd love to see an aluminum four banger of about 3 liters that was essentially half of either an SBC or SBF......heads, bellhousing, flywheel, rods, pistons, etc.