Nice job! Just a word of advice on swapping water pumps, make sure the impeller is set up the right way for whatever belt drive you decide on. Ford has changed the water pump impeller over the years for reverse rotation to allow serpentine belt drives. I have seen it before. Good luck, I have a 51 F3 I am working on and I am happy to see these trucks getting some attention.
Good catch on the water pump. Ford has done some interesting things with those Widsor water pumps for sure. In the early 260/289 days, the inlet was on the passenger side. I actually tried fitting one of those because the outlet on the radiator is on the passengar side but the mounting locations for the water pump didn't fit the motor I have. I ended up sticking with the original style water pump for the year of 302 I'm using and the belt system is still stock as well so I should be good. I'll just have to devise a way to get the lower radiator hose to work. I'll probably take some exhaust tubing and make a pipe that runs under the motor to connect it all up. Good luck with your F3! Do you have a build thread? Would love to see it.
Ok, let me ask this question, Do I even need a proportioning valve and residual valves? I assume I would since I'm installing a dual bowl master cyliner, but thought I'd ask. thanks david
If you're staying with the drums brakes, I'm pretty sure you don't need the residual valves. I'm not positive. I thought the residual valves were there to keep some pressure in the calipers so the pads won't retract to far. I thought the prop valve was there because the calipers need more pressure to move than the wheel cylinders because the surface area of the caliper piston is so much larger than the wheel cylinders. I thought the pressure balance when you're using drums all the way around was taken care of by having different wheel cyllinder bores. If I'm right, then you won't need either valves.
Ok, I think I've figured out what I'm gonna do with these pesky brake lines. Here's a picture of the MC and proportioning valve as reference. I'm going to use 3/16 line from the MC into the residual valves and from the residual valves into the proportioning valve. While the MC is a couple of inches higher than the wheel cylinders I don't want to take the chance of the brake fluid draining from the wheel cylinders back into the MC. In the picture above, the inputs for the Prop Valve are at the bottom and there is one output on top and two on the ends. For the front brakes I'm going to continue with 3/16 line and then convert it to 1/4 line at the flex line. For the rear brakes I'm going to convert it to 1/4 line exiting the proportioning valve and it will stay 1/4 line all the way to the rear wheel cylinders. Since the prop valve's purpose is to adjust the front/rear brake bias, I should be able to use it to adjust the brakes (front to rear) so that they work properly. This way I only have three line conversion points. I rear a lot of different posts on brake line size here on the HAMB and on the FordBarn and read one post where Cheverolet (I believe) used two different size brake lines on some of their cars, 3/16 going to the front and 1/4 going to rear. If I have any issues once it is all together, the way I'm running the line should make it "easy" to adjust as needed. I appreciate all of your input; never thought running brake line would be so challenging!
So I emailed Wilwood brakes to see what advice they'd give. I asked them the same questions I asked you all and here's the response I received. "Thank you for your interest in Wilwood Disc Brakes. We do recommend using the proportioning valve to help adjust the rear brake balance on a street application. The 10 pound residual valve is also necessary on drum brakes, as the mechanical springs of the drum system can push and make the fluid travel back towards the master cylinder. It will not be a problem to mix 3/16 and ¼ inch brake line, although for drum brakes, most of your line should be ¼ inch. Regards, Wilwood Disc Brakes" Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
I'm kinda curious as to why people had pedal pressure issues with larger diameter lines. When I did my last project, a '51 F1, I ran 3/8" tubing from the proportioning valve back to the rear axle hose connection point, then 3/16" to each rear cylinder. Up front, I ran standard 3/16" brake line tubing directly from individual ports to each side. The pedal felt good and just a light touch was needed to stop the truck. I'm no engineer, but fluid dynamics seem fairly simple from my experience, and most issues come from air or restrictions in the lines. If I'm missing something and someone can enlighten me I'm all ears. (or keyboards, so to speak).
This is the explanation I was given. The master cylinder puts out X amount of volume. The larger diameter tubing uses a larger volume to transmit that pressure and pressure and volume are related. All I know this that when the line was changed over from 1/4" to 3/16", the pedal in the car improved dramatically. I will add this was a 4 wheel disc vehicle, so maybe the volume of the calipers compared to wheel cylinders plays into the equation From the explanation I was given, going with the smaller line will give you a better pedal, no matter what the configuration. It made sense me and proved out in the car.
xtremek, I agree that it is hard to argue with what worked for you and perhaps it is the difference between four wheel disc and four wheel drum that makes the difference? OahuEli, I agree with your comments as well. I even asked a couple of my mechanical engineering buddies about it and they really didn't have an answer. At this point I'm going to try the mixture of 1/4 and 3/16 line and hope for the best.
Looking back at it all I realized I had a small case of cranial flatulence. While I said cylinder, the '51 F1 also had 4 wheel disc brakes. Maybe hydraulics is like electrical, one part theory, one part magic.
You got that right about electrical....lots of magic in there! One of my EE professors in college was teaching an EE class to non-EE students and he was trying to convince them that electricity flowed downhill which is why power plants were built on high hills. He also commented that power plants would apply special colors to their electrons so that the photosensors at homes would only accept electricity from the proper power plants. Now then, where did I put my cable stretcher......
Oh I'm gonna swipe the colored electron story. When the mechanics at work have issues with their electrical tools I tell them its either because of a stuck electron in the wire, or that the electrons are getting flat on one side and this slows the electricity down. Also, I've almost got one of our safety men convinced that we need a DC frequency meter for the tool room. lol
Hi Dave, do you have the dimensions for the leaf spring bushings and pins? And possibly a source for same? The dimensions would really be appreciated. I have a lathe and may just make them. Thanks in advance.
been following this thread also for info on my 49 f5. don't know what truck you have but rockauto list bushings and pins for these trucks, they are in the 12$ each range.
Thanks for the info. RockAuto works out pretty well. They take care of the duty and brokerage before the border. I don't mean to hijack the thread. Do these use the same bushings and pins on all the springs? Front and back? Thanks again.
Gold03, pretty much all of the suspension bushings and pins I bought through Job Lot Automotive. They are located in New Jersey and are an absolute pleasure to work with. They are very knowledgable and very helpful. As for the pin dimensions, I think I still have the old ones that I could measure. The ends of them should be pretty close to stock size but the centers are wore out. The bushings were toast as well. Oh, and the front and rear are different sizes. I don't think the price for them from Job Lot was that much, I'd call them before making your own, especially for the rear shackle. It used two small bushings instead of one big one. The bushings even had Ford stamped in them. I've bought a few things for it from RockAuto but you just have to be carful. The tie rods I bought from them and while they did fit you could tell they were from different manufacturers. Shoot, even the castle nuts were different. One is too tall and one is just right. If there is anything I can help you with just ask. It's always a pleasure to help someone out. Blessings Dave Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
Well, I finished running the majority of the brake lines last night. All I have left is to run the lines from the Master Cylinder, through the residual valves and then into the proportioning valve. I want to thank GeoKing for telling me about the Ni-Copp lines sold through Advanced Auto Parts. Those lines are fantastic! Not only do they look good but they are so easy to work with. I'm a believer! Praise the Lowered! To be honest, running these brake lines was a job I was dreading. Invariably I position the bender a degree or two off and make the bend in the completely wrong direction but that homemade tubing straightener worked to put me back on the straight and narrow. Not only did it work good for uncurling the tubing but it worked great for working out bends that were made incorrectly. But enough of that, here are some of my pics.
thank you! Last night I took some Never Dull and polished up the lines. I was pleasantly surprised at how well it turned out. The Never Dull removed my "bend here" marks and gave the lines a nice shine, but not over the top "blingy" haha. I also painted the Master Cylinder with some Zero Rust; it was starting to flash rust and thought this paint should be tough enough to withstand any dripped brake fluid. On a separate task I've been checking all of the suspension and frame nuts and bolts to make sure they are securly fastened. My only question is how tight do the U-bolt nuts need to be? I'm assuming they need to be "good'n tight" but I have no way to use a torque wrench because either I don't have a socket deep enough or I can't access the nut with a socket. I had to use a combination wrench and got them as tight as I could by "hand" and then add my "persuader" (other wise known as a big ole pipe slipped over the wrench for added leverage) and gave the nuts a few more turns.
Sorry, for some reason, my dad lives in my head at times. And I am lucky enough to get that speech every time he is around and I use an extra pipe or wrench for leverage. I did just that today for his response to your post. He brought me this combination and he said "everything has a torque spec" "sometimes you need to use what you have to reach around things" "Quit hitting that wrench with a hammer!" 6 inch extention and a crows foot worked. Hope this helps. Again, sorry for sounding like a smartass, but it's how I grew up.
No need to apologize Tantank. My dad's teachings ring in my head as well. I listened to my concerns over using the breaker bar and didn't take it too far. The last thing I want to do at this point is break anything. Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
Well, one of those nights. Was working on the Master Cylinder and it fell off of my bench and broke one of the mounting ears. Nice.
On nights like that, I go into the house hug and kiss my wife and tease the girls. Doesn't fix the problem, but I feel a ton better. Sorry for the bad luck.
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