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Rust busting - a new way

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by NORSON, Dec 2, 2013.

  1. NORSON
    Joined: Jan 19, 2009
    Posts: 469

    NORSON
    Member

    Two months ago I was using Molasses to remove rust from my old body panels. A neighbor complained about the smell and I had to shut it down. A fellow HAMBer (oldcarguygazok) from OZ, mentioned that the Ozrodders are starting to use Citric Acid. I got on their site for information and started the search for citrus. The best price I could find locally was $115 for 50 pounds. From what I've been able to find on the OZrodders site, 50 pounds should be close to what I need for my 300 gallon tank. Molasses was costing me $100 a batch. So, its close cost wise and if you factor in the lack of smell and how much cleaner it is, its a no brainer. I've included some pictures showing a rusty can I put in a test batch. The test batch is not of the correct ratio (It's pretty strong), but was to see how the citrus would dissolve in the cold. The pictures show the can at the start, at 24 hours, at 48 hours and 72 hours. Yah, I know, Its not a door, but I couldn't get it in the jar. Part of the test was to see if it would work a low temps (its been mid 30's - mid 40's). Tonight its going to drop below freezing and I'm curious if the acidity affects the freeze point.
     

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  2. Choff
    Joined: Sep 15, 2009
    Posts: 184

    Choff
    Member

    What do you think of Citric Acid for rust removal ??????

    I was going to try soon for my rear fenders and grill shell.

    Sounds good dollar wise and smells good also?
     
  3. mcmopar
    Joined: Nov 12, 2012
    Posts: 1,734

    mcmopar
    Member
    from Strum, wi

    Also interested, keep us posted. I tried molasses, this year and was happy, just not the amount of time, but then I did forget about the part.
     
  4. nailheadroadster
    Joined: Jun 7, 2006
    Posts: 1,525

    nailheadroadster
    Member

    I have used citric acid powder mixed with hot water to dissolve the power and it worked very well. So far, I have only done smaller parts and some hardware but it comes out looking amazingly clean... like it just came out of the blast cabinet! I was blown away at how the rust was totally gone!

    However, the parts I have done are only rusty... supposedly it does not clean off any grease or dirty grunge... only rust. There are several websites that discuss the mixing ratios and the temp of the water to use. It seems that keeping the water warm / hot is part of the key to good rust removal... and I stirred the mixture every 30 minutes or so. I have used an old crockpot and that really seems to work the quickest versus ambient temp water. The best part is that it is NOT harmful to anything else. Totally biodegradable so it can just be tossed out after it starts to loose its strength and wont hurt your skin if it touches you.
     

  5. i have had fellow body men having good results using citric acid in removing rust

    just knowing the mixture ratio is key here ....
     
  6. earlymopar
    Joined: Feb 26, 2007
    Posts: 1,608

    earlymopar
    Member

    I did my dropped axle, leaf springs, spindles and all related front suspension pieces from my Dodge about 2 months ago using Citric Acid bought off of E-bay. The seller offers it in various weight bags and has free shipping. I bought a 5 lb bag to begin and with an 8 ozs to 1 gallon ratio, it works very well and is cost effective. Do a search on Ebay for citric acid and you'll find the seller I'm referring to.

    - EM
     
  7. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,856

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    Acid washes are ok, but they do remove some metal in the process, plus you have to fully neutralize the acid to stop the process. Do a search (on HAMB and the internet) for electrolytic rust removal.

    It's clean, odor free, relatively safe (except for the hydrogen gas), environmentally friendly, inexpensive, and works amazingly.
     
  8. Hmmm...I'd be interested in hearing updates as you learn more.

    In the past, I have used phosphoric acid because it only attacks the rust and doesn't seem to harm the metal. It also leaves a protective coating that prevents rust for quite a long time. You still have to neutralize before painting though or you could have adhesion problems. Also, it's darned expensive.

    Does citric acid it require immediate neutralizing? I know some acids (like muriatic) clean the rust off but then it actually promotes new rust formation.

    How long before it stops working and you have to make a new batch?

    ^I like this technique best. The only drawback being that it only works "line of sight".
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  9. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 8,661

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

    A baking soda rinse has always eliminated post rusting for me, even with muriatic.
     
  10. Hdonlybob
    Joined: Feb 1, 2005
    Posts: 4,115

    Hdonlybob
    Member

    Very impressive !
    Thanks for sharing..
     
  11. yeah, but even the fumes from muriatic rusts everything in the shop.
     
  12. Hotrodhog
    Joined: Aug 11, 2011
    Posts: 169

    Hotrodhog
    Member

    I have used Phosphoric Acid with great success but it's hard to get...I've switched to Muratic acid mixed 40 parts water to one part acid and it works great! I rinse well and neutralize with a soda water wash...this is about 3 days in the acid :D
     

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  13. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 8,661

    blowby
    Member
    from Nicasio Ca

    Good point for anyone who isn't experienced with it. When I first started zinc plating years ago I used it indoors and rusted everything in a 20ft radius. Outside only in a clear area.
     
  14. bobj49f2
    Joined: Jun 1, 2008
    Posts: 1,926

    bobj49f2
    Member

    I want to make a part out of stainless steel. I work with a couple of places that make machinery for the food industry and they clean the stainless by passivation using acid. They use two different types, nitric and citric. Nitric is some very nasty stuff and takes great to use with special clothing and disposal. The citric acid is a lot better for the do it yourselfer. It's the ingredient in tangy citrus candy and other citrus based food. Both acids remove air borne contamination including small particles of air borne mild steel.
     
  15. adam401
    Joined: Dec 27, 2007
    Posts: 2,856

    adam401
    Member

    I'm inexperienced with all of these chemistry type methods of rust removal. Are these methods being used as a preferable method to say media blasting or as an alternative due to lack of access to blasting?
    I know about the over heating risks, danger of warpage, potential to remove good material with abrasives and am very familiar with these methods.
    The results look amazing. Thanks
     
  16. falcongeorge
    Joined: Aug 26, 2010
    Posts: 18,341

    falcongeorge
    Member
    from BC

    Gonna try it on my T 1/4 panels in the spring. I have read up on all the methods, tried vinegar on some small parts, electrolytic sounds the best to me.
     
  17. R Frederick
    Joined: Mar 30, 2009
    Posts: 2,658

    R Frederick
    Member
    from illinois

    "If you add water to concentrated sulfuric acid, it can boil and spit and you may get a nasty acid burn. Water is less dense than sulfuric acid, so if you pour water on the acid, the reaction occurs on top of the liquid. If you add the acid to the water, it sinks and any wild and crazy reactions have to get through the water to get to you."

    I used to work Hazmat and poured some water into a drum of Sulfuric acid once to dilute it. The Acid heat flashed and scared the crap out of me. We were suited up, but the heat concussion coming out of the barrel was a scary warning.:eek:
    Just remember to add the acid to the water slowly if mixing.;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  18. dadseh
    Joined: May 13, 2001
    Posts: 526

    dadseh
    Member

    You get the same results using straight vinegar!
     
  19. NORSON
    Joined: Jan 19, 2009
    Posts: 469

    NORSON
    Member

    Prep and Etch is the best way to neutralize the flash rust from Citrus Acid or Molasses and probably the other stuff listed. It contains Phosphoric Acid. I mix it 4 to 1 with water. I use a weed sprayer to spray it door cavities and brush it on panels. Citrus Acid and Molasses will not eat the steel just the rust.
    I've tried electrolysis and think this is much better.
    When I'm talking about these food based "acids" and that includes the acids in Molasses I'm talking about very mild stuff that could cause irritations to your skin. Some of the more caustic stuff that is being talked about could have serious consequences.
    Norm
     

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  20. nailheadroadster
    Joined: Jun 7, 2006
    Posts: 1,525

    nailheadroadster
    Member

    After each part comes out of the citric power and water mix, I have always dried thoroughly then shot with etching primer. No problems at all with finish paint.
     
  21. thanks for the efforts guys and the inputs.....
     
  22. R Frederick
    Joined: Mar 30, 2009
    Posts: 2,658

    R Frederick
    Member
    from illinois

    Someone PM'd me notifying me that it was not pertinent to post that you should be careful mixing "sulfuric" acid with water. Same is true for ANY acid such as Muratic as follows:

    "Always pour acid into water, never water into acid. You'll be diluting the muriatic acid with water before cleaning any masonry surfaces. Use a plastic bucket to mix in and always add the water to the bucket first and then slowly pour in the acid. Be careful when pouring the acid; the fumes are intense and can be painful if inhaled. Never pour water into a bucket of acid. A reaction can occur that can cause the acid to bubble out of the bucket and onto you. Always pour the acid into water."

    Be careful not to blow acid all over yourself.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2013
  23. Devin
    Joined: Dec 28, 2004
    Posts: 2,369

    Devin
    Member
    from Napa, CA

    I'm a chef and we use ascorbic acid (vitamin C) to prevent fruits and vegetables from oxidizing and gong brown. We all know that vitamin C is an antioxidant so, I'm wondering if this would be a good on rusty (oxidized) metal? Not sure how much it costs in bulk though. I think i will give it a shot and post up some pics.


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  24. NORSON
    Joined: Jan 19, 2009
    Posts: 469

    NORSON
    Member

    See why you use a pay phone. Wisenheimer here. Didn't call you stupid in the PM. Just suggested that because sulfuric acid hadn't been mentioned it would be a good idea to remove the post. My concern was someone might think it was a viable option. I personally have no experience with muratic acid, but I'm thinking it's not food based and might be hard to dispose of. I also noticed that you didn't mention muratic in your original post. Maybe you ment to say that instead of sulfuric. If that is the case, I'm sorry. If not............!
    Norm
     
  25. fordcragar
    Joined: Dec 28, 2005
    Posts: 3,198

    fordcragar
    Member
    from Yakima WA.

    I've used vinegar for over 20 years with good results. It would be interesting to know what the ph levels are for some of the different solutions (that work) are so a good comparison could be made.
     
  26. R Frederick
    Joined: Mar 30, 2009
    Posts: 2,658

    R Frederick
    Member
    from illinois

    I'm sorry that I took it the wrong way. I was just trying to make sure nobody got hurt from an explosion mixing this stuff. You caught me in a technicallity, I should have been more general with my research that I quoted.:(
     
  27. NORSON
    Joined: Jan 19, 2009
    Posts: 469

    NORSON
    Member

    RFrederick
    No problem. I've noticed in in past threads on rust removal, people will talk about the stuff they use and the results they get. Some sound good, some sound scary. The hydrogen from electrolysis would seem to be a problem. Its also kind of messy. Molasses is very messy and stinks (hard to use around neighbors). Vinegar - I've never used it, but a guy made a framework on his driveway and lined it with plastic. It ended up leaking and eating the surface of his driveway. Others have reported killing their grass.
    There are unintended consequences that can occur with almost all of this stuff. Just think about what are you going to do with this 300 gallons of stuff when it no longer works or you're done with it. If it works really great and really fast it might really hard to get rid of after you're done.
    Norm
     
  28. Hotrodhog
    Joined: Aug 11, 2011
    Posts: 169

    Hotrodhog
    Member

    Just for reference, Muratic acid is sold at home depot and other building supply stores and is used to clean concrete, and is also used to adjust the acid level in swimming pools.
    It is realatively safe as long as you use your head and READ directions....pouring the acid into the water is the correct method. I use it cause it's easy to get, it's cheap, and will do a lot of parts. Once used I dilute it down with more water (already diluted 40:1),and dispose of it.
     
  29. slowmotion
    Joined: Nov 21, 2011
    Posts: 3,330

    slowmotion
    Member

    Lots of good info here. Good to know there's options. I've used straight white vinegar on small stuff with great results after a 24hr soak.
     
  30. jazz1
    Joined: Apr 30, 2011
    Posts: 1,534

    jazz1
    Member

    I'm using vinegar, the stuff is amazing and I sourced some at a discount store for $2.00 a gallon,works great and if you need to dispose of it you can make weed killer with the residue

    1 gallon vinger
    1/4 cup salt
    4tbsp dishsoap
     

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