Projects The bucket of ugly! A de-uglifying thread...

A little food for thought on that count. I wont enter into the breakage debate, but I'm betting the farm on the push...
The relatively long wb with the near equal tire size will help, but cornered hard, this this is still gonna plow like an Oshkosh...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=9209074#post9209074

 

In an interview with Norm regarding his T, he said that the frame (at least the rails) was from an Essex. By the time he got it cut and welded the way he wanted, the rails were looking pretty bad, so he had Valley Custom make some covers for the areas that showed in the front of the car. I don't remember where I read the story, but it stuck in my mind. I'm not really a T-bucket guy, but this car was one of my all-time favorites from the time I saw the Life Magazine photos back in 1957. It was a WTF hot rod moment that ruined me for life!

 

Hey, FG;

I know, which is why I mentioned WOT = throttle steering. Not the fastest way around, but probably the most fun (& showy). Still, I'd bet that that thing would be better than most hot rods, & more fun than a sports car (except a 427 Cobra). Somewhere I saw a pic of the guy driving it. Was sitting 'way low, almost looked like he was reclining. Street profiling maybe? That'd be harder at the autocross, but still, I'd work that thing to death having the time of my life. The wheelbase doesn't look too long, & i'd bet it's shorter than near anything this side of a honda. It's still one of 3 or 4 Tbuckets that I want. & I love how it breaks almost every 'rule' for them & still comes off so well. Maybe needs a set of injection stacks, or a polished blower sitting on top of the hemi, to complete the eyeball assault. Well, now I've got two bucket-types on the brain... .

Marcus...

 

I have never heard or read about an Essex frame but might be. About Norm remembering all the details about his roadster I really don't think he was the best authority on it in his latter years. He moved on a lot sooner than the rest of us. He actually didn't build the original car and didn't do a lot of the work on it through the years he owned it. I've seen some wrong parts on clones that the owner/builders say that Norm approved as the same parts he used. I really don't think Norm cared about his old roadster as much as the rest of us. It didn't "eat his brain" like it did to the rest of us. Really Von Franko or Royal probably are the best authorities on it now.

 

I thought I was the only one who thought writing, "hot rod" on a hot rod was awkward. It's as if it answers a question that's never asked:

"Is that a hot rod or a regular car?"

"Well, according to the label, it's a hot rod."

"Oh, thanks. I couldn't see the difference."

 

Suspension would have a LOT to do with how that car handles on a track. Not just the fat ass tires all the way around. I doubt that car had the roll technology to handle an auto cross course. In fact, I bet turning on a regular street was a bitch.

 

Those labels are some of the stuff guys buy, when they can't think of anything else to do to their car.

 

Nah, pretty damn sure Norm's car was on an "A" frame Like the Lightning Bug clone that Von Franco built of the car. '27 Essex frames were a staple of forties track roadster construction back then, and not saying they were "never" used under a T-Bucket, but it couldn't have been a frequent thing. The rear kick-up just isn't conducive to the short bed type style that became popular about the time of the first glass bodies in '59 or so.

Edit: I can tell you that the one famous car still extant that is positively on a '27 Essex frame is the Niekamp '29. Jake repaired the back half with a section of '36 Willys rails during his resto of the car in the early seventies.

 

No argument here Gary. I would never say that either "A" or "T" frames CAN'T be used, just that the path of least resistance is to start fresh. I have built a good many "A" chassis over the years, and M preference in the situation of a stock frame is to build un-boxed with a substantial X-member involved. Boxing really only increases beam strength, and alone doesn't do too much for torsional rigidity. Where the "vast improvements" of boxing a frame come in is always when the front and rear cross member get tied into the side rails weld. I weld the cross members, then put an X in the center to triangulate the whole thing and stiffen both beam and torsional twist without the weight or warp of boxing. Problem is, a stock type "T" frame is very compact and doesn't lend it's self very well to this type of stabilization. Much easier to replicate in a slightly heavier tube, and weld a substantial center cross member in for a trans mount.

Again, not saying it CAN'T be done, as it has many, many, times over, I'm just saying that MY preference is to work with fresh stuff.

I'll dig up the article and scan it this after noon, but if memory serves correct he found it as a long forgotten '60s build, cleaned it up and sold it, only to buy it back piece by piece as the new owner "updated" it.

 

Without turning Chips thread into a long-winded dissertation on suspension setup, the problem with using the throttle to compensate for a push is that the greater the inherent tendency of the given set-up to "push", the narrower the margin between throttle oversteer and spinning the car becomes. In other words, the heavier the push, the more throttle it takes to get the car to neutral or slight oversteer, and the margin between slight oversteer, and complete loss of traction at the back becomes narrower and narrower.

 

I think you made a good choice in building a new one. I think that the nostalgia thing can get taken a bit too far. There's no slight to history in building a stronger, better frame. It's just good common sense.

 

I'm with you. The only hope that it wouldn't plow like mad, is that it does have weight on the front end. Unlike a dune buggy on the street with 4 wide tires....yikes! Look at Formula V. Skinny tires matched to the weight of the car.

Of course, again, we're talking about t-buckets here and a giant engine and brakeless front MC tire doesn't make a bunch of sense either. But it's bitchin'. Actually, I bet a T from the era that Chip is building from might be an all around better handler (compared to other T trends) with it's more moderate front tires and brakes.

 

No, I think its kind of cool as well, I was just trying to imagine autocrossing it! Should clear those pesky orange cones out of the way anyway...

I would think it would stick pretty good just based on contact patch per pound, but man, when it goes, it aint gonna give much warning, and its gonna go UGLY.

 

Hey gang, back in from the shop. As promised, I scanned Royal Shifter's 'Bucket, and here it is.

Now, I owe Harv117 and Gary SteelRebel and apology, as I remembered it wrong and this one IS on a modified stock frame. I too looked at the low angle shot of it and mistook the wishbone for the stock "T" frame taper.

 

I had a small neon sign made up for the highest branches of a tree in front of my house for awhile years ago. When you pulled the extra long chain, it lit up and said "tree"... I don't know why, but the Hot Rod script always has reminded me of that.

 

Thanks for posting the pics of Royal Shifters car, Louvers. It confirmed what I was thinking that top looked like.

 

Damn good eye on that one too! I would have never put my finger on that being "A" based. now I know what I'm looking for if I even get to that point with mine.

 

Rebel, there's something crazy going on with that dash and I like it! Do you have any pics of it?

 

For some reason I kinda had a hunch that was the car you were after.

 

Sorry to say Don died a couple of years ago too.

 

Interesting to see a 4 bar front suspension back then. Certainly not the norm on a T Bucket, even today.

 

Don was quite a craftsman. According to his friends he had one of the first "man caves." Early '50s tract house in San Lorenzo. Attached two garage opened up to the detached man cave garage in back with all the build equipment.

 

Oh, to have something like that today....