Obviously, something is amiss if mph takes a drastic dump as well as E.T. Telepathic drivers like Sox were 4-spd institutions. They will indubitably yield .3 tenths from any given combination compared to the average driver, but, mph usually remains static. This fact was clearly emphasised in later 60s road and drag strip testing by Mopar, Ford, and Mercury. Several professional drivers were contracted for these tests against other ''notable'' amateurs and indicated mph was virtually the same despite better E.T.s. Without, posting the complete articles I will cut and post the drag strip results from two specialised ads from Chrysler. Drag time(s) speak for themselves.
I just got off the phone with an old drag racing buddy and we talked about "tricks" we used on his '62 409 back in the day..... In October 1961 he took delivery of a 1962 Impala 2 dr hardtop 409/409 with 4.56 gears and no power options. We took it to Island Dragway, bone stock with Atlas Bucrons and ran mid 14's at 98 MPH with both he and I driving...so we were either equally good or equally bad drivers LOL Now for some tricks.....ALL 409's were shipped with dual head gaskets, lowering the compression to about 10:1 so "knocking" wouldn't be an issue. So we pulled the heads, and removed one gasket and also blocked the heat passages in the intake manifold to the carb, using tin from an old coffee can!!! We then took the car to an ignition shop and installed lighter weights in the distributor so the timing would come in quicker. We installed a set of S&S headers like those used by Don Nicholson. We bought a box of jets to experiment with when at the track. We bought taller and narrower front tires and pumped them to 50lbs. Back to the track!!! Remove the HUGE air cleaner, open the headers and we were ready!!! The first pass on a cold day in October netted a high 13 at 108 MPH!!! The ET was a bit disappointing but the MPH was encouraging. Experimenting with larger jets and starting techniques we got the car down to 13.30's at 109-110. Running 110 MPH, the car should run in the high 12's so starting line technique was the issue. I remember , the best times were obtained by bringing the RPM to about 2500, sliding the clutch off the line and S-L-O-W-L-Y flooring the gas before power shifting second. If I lost traction I would shift into second early and that would stop the tire spin and net a decent ET. The next few months we concentrated on removing weight from the car, including rear seat springs, carpets and insulation, wiper/washer motor, horns etc. We eventually got the car to run consistent 12.90's but Chevy had released a service pkg for the 409 in the spring including bigger cam,heads, etc and my buddy couldn't afford the upgrades, so he became non competitive in SS/S. That's how quickly things changed back then so without factory sponsorship, the"little guy" simply couldn't afford to compete. Street racing became the obvious alternative !!!
Its interesting to see how the ad campaigns for some of the manufacturers underwent a radical change from the early years through the later sixties. In the beginning, it was your basic showroom stock models. Beginning with the Super Stock era, Chrysler, Ford, and Mercury began to heavily advertise yearly drag race results, most notable being the various Top Stock AHRA and NHRA national event winners.<O</O <O</O Prior to 1962, it was mostly the aftermarket cam companies that placed such ads after each big drag race event. Sometimes Weiand, Grant, and others would place ads emphasising outright top speed and low E.T. for the dragster classes, leaving out everything else.<O</O <O</O Champion Spark Plugs was an early pioneer and set the stage for many others to follow. Not only did Champion list the top dog Dragsters, Gassers, and Altereds, but, by 1959, they began listing Stock and Super Stock eliminators too. <O</OIMHO, Chrysler was the drag strip ad campaign leader for the auto industry. From the onset, their ads contained colorful language, hard-nosed specs, and irrefutable results with cars that backed up their claims, as being the best engineered and prepared cars for strip duty. <O</OFord had a couple good ads with their T-Bolt. Otherwise, they seemed more bent on NASCAR. Mercury was more tuned in to the strip than sister-ship Ford, with their Comet and Cyclone ads in the feverish 64-67 era. <O</OAfter 1967, Chrysler conducted outright strip tests using Ronnie Sox, Dick Landy, and later on, Herb McClandess as their tactical driving force. Coinciding with their Super Stock Clinics, these professionals used well prepared machinery that delivered good repeatable results manufacturers and magazines alike depended upon for record sales, increased circulation, maximum publicity, and showroom exposure. <O</OTo underline these facts, I will post a few ads that I hope will fuel memories, recall races won and lost, and spark debate among us who were there and create an interest for those who were not.<O</O
Looking at a few of the ads in the above posting shows a '61 Ford 390/401 turning 12.80's ...NO WAY!!! The hottest 401 Fords of Gas Ronda, Les Ritchey and Phil Bonner would run 13.30's at best !! Many ads would exaggerate times to draw attention to their track !!!
LOL! Yes, I noticed the 12s and decided to post it anyway, knowing full-well that stock-class legal 390s were doing well to hit 13.3s at that time. I was about to ask anyone if they knew the team or have some credible answwer, and you just quoted the obvious. Exaggerations ran wild in those days; still do. So, let me ask you this. What would a 390-401 horser do in the case of being class-illegal assuming minor mods? How about Modified Production? Furthermore, anyone know anything about the Tom Grove Chevy? How about the Patterson Ford, and the Caddy?
Dodge and Plymouth Super Stock ads from 1963 and '64. These were the cars to beat in top stock classes. Tell me how easy that was...
Thanks for posting that. I've got the original article somewhere but I haven't read it in a lot of years. Loved the part about reusing the head gaskets 4 or 5 times! I was privileged to have had Sam Shinabery as an auto tech instructor in the mid 70s. Always enjoyed hearing the stories of the preperation and tricks that went into these cars. The guys that ran these cars competively had a whole different thought process than I'd ever run into before. I recall Sam mentioning that he bought his pistons and/or ring sets out of the Spiegel mail order catalog.
As to the '61 Ford 390/401 ....you need to remember , they were encumbered by a 3 speed stick on the column. The competition all had 4 speeds !!!! It wasn't until 1962 that Ford finally joined the 4 speed party!!!
Thanks Noisyboyz; That's a good story. Tricks in those days were in reality quite minor. Any enterprising soul could have performed most of them in the back yard on his street machine. Better running street cars actually had most of those mods which were low-buck in nature. Only mod not so casually performed was the blocked heat riser(s) was wasn't really streetable anyway. The buck stopped just about where you guys did when the mid-year service package came out. By that time, alot of drag oriented guys must have switched over to the street scene and watched through the gate as monied teams began to take over. BTW, what was the factory weight on the Chevy before, and after you guys stripped her down naked?
What I was wondering about was the actual raw potential of that engine in terms of horsepower. What do you estimate it at compared to the 409 that you raced? In other words, put them on a dyno and see what each would do. I know that the Fords were at least 300 hundred pounds too heavy for class and that three-speed obviously hurt. Beyond that what was the problem with the Ford? Given the same weight and 4-spd trans, would performance have been close? Let me pick your brain, man!
We never weighed the car..(shipping weight was 3450, but that was with a small block and no accessories) I would estimate we took about 125 lbs or so out of the car....Good enough for about a tenth ( 1 car length )....Often the difference between winning and losing !!!
It seemed the Fords were always a little late to the party!! The 390 was no match for the 409 since it gave up 19 cubic inches, 2-4's vs 3x2's and much smaller valves and ports....I would guess the '62 409 outpowered the 390/401 by at least 35-40 Horsepower and with 300 more pounds to move, the results were predictable!!! By the time Ford went to a 406 in Feb 1962, Chevy had released their service pkg for the 409 and was still well ahead !!! In Feb 1963 Ford released the 427 dual quad, but Chevy countered with the awesome Z-11 427...once again Ford was second best,,,hence the Thundebolt in 1964 where Ford won the S/S crown, but of course Chevy didn't compete and Mopars had a lousy stick shift. The Ford 427 FE block was an excellent motor with cross bolted mains , larger sodium filled valves and eventually, in 1965 a tunnel port intake and hi riser heads ....they made serious horsepower were nearly indestructable!!!
One car that I was familiar with in Toronto was the George Massicotte 64 Galaxie XL with the 427 Low Riser. I remember it very well. On occassion, I used to check it out and hang aroung the service station when they fired it up. To a kid, it sounded like a mean daddy. I knew a couple of other guys in the same time frame who owned street n track prepped 390 P.I.s and the venerated 427. I prefer mine in Rangoon Red, Peacock Blue, or, Nightmist Blue. I know these shots were posted at one time on this thread, but I am posting them again, and I hope that others might have earlier pics of the car. Apparently, the black n white was taken around 1970. The other is obviously the newly restored version. Thing is I remember the car a little differently. As you can see from the two pics, the whole lettering/decal configuration is vastly different from one to another. I know of Donway Ford from way back, but, I don't ever recall seeing that logo on the car in early days. Wheels seem different also. Perhaps I am hallucinating again, and only want to recall what I would have liked to have had back then, but, then again, I think that I may be right...anyone care to prove me wrong? Where's Barrie Poole when you need him? He should know since he raced it for a couple of years. LOL!
I would say the car weighed about 3500 - 3550 lbs., max, the way you guys ran it stripped down, since most info I have put the 409 street version at about 3600 - 3700.
Let me just say a word about Ford's T-Bolt S/S crown in 1964.... It sounds impressive, but Chevy and Pontiac were gone and Chrysler only had a horrible 3 speed trans until spring 1964, so few teams ran a stick shift car (Tom Grove's formidable S/S Melrose Missile was one of the few exceptions). The T-Bolts virtually had the class to themselves by default...But that wasn't Ford's plan!!!! They actually built half of the 100 or so T-Bolts as AUTOMATICS to go head to head with the Mopars. However, they ran so poorly, all the teams converted them to stick shift cars !!! I don't remember a single automatic T-Bolt that was competitive. From what I understand , the torque convertor wasn't a high stall like Mopar's and the car simply wouldn't launch . Mopars were light years ahead with their 727 Torqueflite !!!!
I was thinking more like 25-30 horsepower more for the early 409 but who can say? I never seen any comparable data between the two. Mid-62 service package really did a number on the Ford 406 and 427 LR. 1965 Medium Riser, Hi-riser, and Tunnel Ports were truely awesome long track engines, and respectable drag strip contenders also. 64 T-Bolt was very competitive and from what I understand, a pretty good match racer against the Z-LL Chevelles of Malcolm Durham, and others. Hemi was better with more top end and perhaps more reliable at the strip. What about the Z-LL as to it's durability? Very few made and not enough parts...
I hear that Chevy / Pontiac argument all the time. LOL! Ford should have never brought out the auto T-Bolt because they had not done enough R&D and the torque convertor was shit. Internal trans was very heavy also resulting in more lost horsepower due to centrifugal force and friction. 727 TF was very well engineered and virtually bulletproof. I am not sure that Chev and Pontiac had anymore real horsepower advantage in 1964 than Ford, regardless of their absence from top stock racing. From what I understand, Hemi definately had as much as 75 horsepower more than Ford. Mystery II Chev probablt had as much as 50 more...but, it was niot legal and even fewer made than the Z-II. Right?
I sent him an email, lets hope he joins in. [/QUOTE] He was one of my heros during the Border Bandit days. I always admired the 69 Mustang styling over John's '68, even though both were similiar in performance. Of course, I always liked the 64 Galaxie, and the 66-67 Cyclone - Fairlane twins.
Reflections of my street racing experiences in the 60's....... In 1963 Ford built about 200 427 Lightweights to compete in S/S. They were fairly competitive, albeit still a little too heavy and eventually gave way to the Thunderbolt in 1964. A small dealer in Rhode Island, Tasca Ford, always stocked 6 or 7 Lightweights ready for immediate sale.....Boy, they were the days !!!! A friend of mine was a Ford freak and dreamed of owning one of these. By the time he scraped the money together (cash only.... you couldn't finance race cars !!) The car wasn't really competitive in S/S, but he bought it anyway and ran B/MP....without much success !!! Despondent and unable to sell a race only car without a tremendous loss, he asked me for advice. I told him to street race it and try to re coup some of his money. Problem was, ALL the Lightweights were the same....White Fastbacks with Red bucket seats and VERY recognizable to any potential victim. The whole concept of street racing is to disguise what you have to gain the advantage.....There was no hiding the fact this was a low 12 second car, so NOBODY would race him!!! Hmmm..What can we do ??? Fast forward 3 months and we have the solution....First, we painted the car black. Then we added full wheelcovers ( no easy task because the original S/S rims won't accept a full cover since there are no tabs on the rim!!!) Solution...we tack-welded the covers to the rims !! Next, we replaced the lightweight buckets ( a dead giveaway) with real seats from an XL Galaxie and replaced the black rubber floor mats with plush carpets...Exchanged 427 emblems on the front fenders with 406 emblems ( yes the 406/405 was available in the mid year Fastback Galaxie body ). We then swapped the dual quad intake for a 3X2 setup, completing the 406 ruse. Adding a full exhaust system, we prowled the drive-ins, looking for unsuspecting chumps.... We took the measure of many 409's, Fuelie Vettes, 426 Mopars and even a few startled 427 Fords !!! John street raced the car for 2 years and I don't think he ever lost....Ah yes......The art of deception !!!!!
I love Pontiacs , but also have a 1963 427/425 Rangoon Red Galaxie 500XL Convertible in my collection.
You have to love this guy! First he talks Chev and Poncho's, and now he discloses his fondness for Fords. Anything fast eh pal? I'm right with you, man. I love 'em all too, although I do have my favorites. However, I can't talk about them on this site cuz they are too new. LOL! BTW, thanks for the insight into your Ford racing days...in East End GTA, I once knew a fellow with a very fast 406-385 transplant into a Playboy Pink '64 Mercury Marauder. It was gutted and modified fairly well but he too had very few takers on the street. It was a huge whale and the wrong color. Unfortunately my friend drank too much and went too fast, and one dark, rainy night, the fog outdid him, and into a steel girder he went, and snuffed himself out.
Here are a few cars I'd like to own...anyone know the history of the '60 Pontiac? How about the Frank Butler 'Osburn Trucking' 64 Galaxie LW?
Just out of curiousity did anyone here ever race an older model Canadian Pontiac with the Chevy drivetrain installed? I don't imagine that they would have been too competitive against the smaller and lighter Chevy with the same engine package availibilty. Were the Canadian models even a factor in Canada? Were they NHRA legal? What about Canadian made Pontiac models on US drag strips? How did all of this play out?
My recollections of actual ET's are the same as yours. I will have to ask Bernie Goleck the next time I see him to what he recalls from those years. He has an amazing reclollection and can still give you HiPo part numbers from that time period!
Yes...I remember this car running in 1962. It was sponsored by Hot Rod Magazine and driven by Ray Brock. I saw it run at the Feb 1962 Pomona Winternationals where it lost to a 1962 Pontiac 421 SD driven by Lloyd Cox and set up by Mickey Thompson. I believe the ET's were right at 13.00.
Hey Steve, my thoughts are the same; IMHO, nobody has to ''babysit'' anyone, because we are adults, and we can look after ourselves. WE can still have fun on this thread and keep it alive and well with our own responsible pre-64 posts. There are lots of subjects we can explore in order to keep things interesting. If need be, I will email articles to anyone on a personal basis and so forth in order to abide by HAMB head rules. On a more personal level, I am interested in your Pontiac avatar. I realize that is one of the cars you used to race. Do you still own it? I would like to hear more about it. If the info is already on this thread, please direct me to it.
seems to me i saw a lot of 67,68,69,camaros ,69,70torinos,66,67 ford station wagon,69,70 mustangs in this thread a while back or does that not count as post 1964???? according to the junior stock book by doug 1964-1971 so why limit cars to pre 1964??? oh yea forget about 1965,66,67,68,69,70 chevy biscaynes !!!
The Jalopy Journal
