The 9" housing goes out for narrowing tomorrow, so now I'm getting serious about the ladder bar setup. First, who makes ladder bars ? I won't be using any more SoCal Speed parts, and have checked out P&J and Speedway bars. Anyone else make long bars (48")? Second, some bars have front bushings while other have either threaded DOM tube or bungs for heim joints or 4 bar style thread in bushings. This will be on a driver, so reliability is the major concern. Advantages and disadvantages of each?
Of all the things to make on your hotrod...ladder bars should be by far the easiest. 4 lengths of tapped/threaded at one end, seamless tubing. 4 clevises for the rear end mount, 2 bushing end thingies for the frame mounts, and some flat plate for the rear end mounting brackets and gussets in the ladder bars themselves. Some cutting and welding and you're done. I would never pay almost $400 or whatever companies are asking for...
But I guess I'm taking it for granted that you can weld... never thought of that! lol you definitely want that stuff to be welded up good. hahah
I've priced out DOM tubing, and welding is the only thing holding me back. I have a mig, but know these have to be tigged, so that would be outsourced. The more I see the prices being asked for these the closer I am to making my own. Any thoughts on the front bushings vs screw-in bushings? Just something a little unsettling about the whole diff connected with 2 threads, and heim joints just don't make me warm and fuzzy even with a low HP deal.
Are you going with triangulated ladder bars or parallel. The triangulated would give more articulation for street driving. My gasser had parallel ladder bars with coilovers and a track bar, heim joints all over. With the constant street driving and driveways, the bracket for the track locator finally snapped, but it was an easy fix. If it ever broke again, I was going to try a pan hard bar. The 4X4 crowd uses heim joints with a ball, allowing travel all all directions.
Not 48", but Jegs sells Comp Eng. ladder bars under the Jegs name for under $200. Very nicely built, and heims on both ends, plus a safety loop up front.
It'll be triangulated with a panhard bar. I used heim joints front and rear on my roadster's 4 bar setup and never had an issue, but it didn't see the miles that this car will either.
Hell, chassis engineering bars are mig welded. If you really wanted to you can use an a arm bushing in the front of the bar. Just cut a piece of tubing to length to house the bushing. And it wont ride like shit like heims usually do.
just curious why you say you wont use any more so-cal parts, i was going to buy some spring hangers and a couple other parts from them, any issues?
Issue with them not shipping what they advertised and them making it right was offering a refund. I would rather deal with a company that is a tad more ethical than that.
Pete and Jakes kit...around $300 ish with the rearend mounting plates....depending on where you buy them. If you really need to debate making them, just buy them and be done with it. Honestly...
i've made many copies of Pete Jake's ladder bars , not hard to do if you have the right equipment. i've even made a jig to hold the parts while welding if you can make them go ahead.....if not , just buy them. they are not very expensive
Understand that, for a number of reasons, ladder bars are not a good choice for a street car. It's a drag race suspension, and nit good for anything that makes turns or drives on rough surfaces.
if you angle in the ladder bars like Pete & Jake's does they are fine on the street.....17 years on my `28 tudor
Angling the bars reduces the binding inherent to ladder bars. Even with the bars angles it would take some pretty compliant bushings to eliminate the binding. Then there is the issue of roll center height at pavement level. Fine fir a drag car, not so good for a street cart. It's a matter of what you can get away with vs what is actually a proper design for the application.
Not to be an asshole...but your quote is just one more example of "on paper" physics not really being relevant. The HAMB is full of stuff like this. There's a reason guys run ladder bars (turned into the centre of the frame) on the street...traction and anti-sway being the most obvious benefits. I don't know how anybody can argue with such a tried and true way of getting HP to the pavement....???? 17 years without a problem on his 28 ^^^ there's thousands of other examples, from guys who absolutely BEAT their cars If we're talking about proper and ideal....lets not talk about traditional at all. Just put a body on a ranger chassis and be done with it.
I have used 100s of pairs of P&J ladder bars with no failures. Give them a call and see if they'll make you custom length?? Everything from them is high quality.
It is a fact that with ladder bars, when there is body lean, or one wheel goes over a bump, something has to flex or bend. Because you have gotten away with what you are doing doesn't change that reality. The fact you haven't had any problems doesn't make it a good idea. I have seen failed parts, broken welds, and axle housings with areas ripped out. While i don't know you, people who make posts like yours will typically dismiss these failures as bad design or poor workmanship, rather than accepting things for what they really are. Ladder bars are a straight ahead only suspension. Ever notice how unstable and hard to control a drag car is when it gets out of shape? that is mostly because ladder bars put the rear roll center at ground level. While that is just "on paper physics', the real world effects are obvious. There is a reason why manufacturers don't put ladder bar suspension on street cars and trucks. You might think it's because they don't know as much as you. In spite of your belief that ladder bars are a street friendly suspension, it isn't so. At the very least, the ignorant "just run er' attitude some have is dangerous. When someone makes a statement like "on paper physics" are not relevant in the real world is is typically because they aren't capable of understanding, aren't willing to invest the effort to learn the facts, or go through life hoping the good fairy will protect them from themselves. You said you weren't trying to be an asshole. Neither am I. My only concern is that, your experience and endorsements aside, if someone wants to put ladder bars on their street car they do it with an understanding of whet the suspension is and is not.
The same type of deflection you are noting exists in every leaf spring car as well. By going with tapered (triangulated) long ladders and rubber front bushings, I don't see ANY more of an issue than the early cars had or the millions of leaf spring cars produced have. Look at the bind created by one wheel rising. With a leaf spring, the pivot is the opposite spring with only the shackle to reduce the bind (in the wrong plane). With the triangulated ladder, a bind is created in the front front bushing to a lesser degree. THAT'S the reason I won't be going with urethane. With little to no compression, the load would have to taken up somewhere. THAT'S what I don't want to find out.
Thousands of Chevy and GM trucks with trailing arm suspension on the road working, and they have many of the same issues of a ladder bar suspensions. The real key to making ladder bar suspension work better on the street is length. The longer they are, the better they work. As mentioned, angling them in also helps make them work.
Every suspension design has pluses and minuses, none are perfect in every way. It is a matter of what is reasonable and what isn't. While race-specific suspension can be done on a street car, all things considered it's not a good choice. Oval track cars got by with using "truck arm" suspension with fairly smallish bushings because the cars don't have or need much suspension travel. The shortcomings of the design have caused it to be abandoned by the same group that once thought it was a great idea. The only way to eliminate the binding caused by ladder bars enough for a street car is something like GM did on old truck suspensions; big compliant bushings and twisty links. Angled or not, ordinary bushings don't come close to addressing the amount of binding that happens with ladder bars.
I got my "gasser" bars from S&W, they are 42" long and they said customers have reported going 8s with them, I sure hope so! My street car has a blown 540 and Lenco 5 speed.
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