History Auto racing 1894-1942

That's an easy mistake to make, Jim, if you're not familiar with the "French 2", like Richard and me (well, sometimes it pays to be Yuropeen! ). The reg numbers also show how the French do the 9, so I think we can conclude it's not a renumbering job.

Sorry, didn't mean to make you look foolish... Everybody slips up, here and there - don't let that worry you, we need your insightful replies!

 

Thanks...It is a very well done car and with the big engine and 606 c.i. it must have pulled like a freight train!!

 

It is actually a really good looking car. It looks like that chassis/WB isn't much bigger then say a Series 5 Mercer or Stutz Bearcat of the same period. Do you think it was designed to compete with Mercer, Stutz and perhaps Duesenberg directly? How do you think it would have stood up against them and say the Type 35J Mercer? The Mercer's weight and small CI engine were among it's best strengths on the track...

 

Just the results of some random googling for "duesenberg world's record car"! Over the years I've seen all sorts of strange world record claims concerning American cars, but the AAA used different rules to the AIACR, including recognising one-way records for flying mile runs. Milton's run was one-way only - as was de Palma's in 1919 - so Hornsted's two-way run from 1914 was the official LSR until René Thomas (briefly) and Ernest Eldridge beat it at Arpajon in 1924. Kenelm Lee Guinness had gone faster at Brooklands - but again only one way. This seems to be the nearest thing to an accurate list, but even this claims (incorrectly) that Lee Guinness held the LSR: http://www.landracing.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6&Itemid=20

The other day I was reading reports of how George Robson attacked a supposed world standing start mile record at Langhorne in 1946. Using 'Poison Lil'. Fitted - and I kid you not - with two rockets to aid acceleration. Not exactly conventional - and then still illegal under both AAA and FIA rules which then only recognised wheel-driven propulsion.

Mind you, he did manage 108.1 mph, although that was only about 5mph faster than Rex Mays had done without rockets!

 

I am not sure about Milton's run being one way but I cannot agree with you on DePalma. The European practice was two way runs. The AAA recognized one way runs. The European sanctioning body, A.I.A.C.R. may very well have wanted everyone to dance to their fiddle but many Americans including the AAA were not so anxious. I believe there was a certain amount of animus between the two bodies, which may account for some of the issues raised. To be recognized as capturing the record on this side of the Atlantic a one way run was sufficient-whether we today consider it right or wrong. If you wanted to meet the European demands it required you go both ways.

When I researched DePalma's Daytona runs years ago I found sources that stated he ran both ways. Years ago I lost a dumpster full of stuff I lost in a flood. Most of my research was saved but some was lost, including a bit on DePalma. That is why I was happy when Gary Doyle on the definitive work on DePalma (Ralph DePalma, Gentleman Champion) also found the same sources and set the record straight. Other than the protestations of people that were thousands of miles away that made claims he ran only one way (which of course served the purpose of diminishing the "American" records) there is absolutely nothing today in the way of any real proof that he ran only one way.

As Gary pointed out in the book, (page 252) both the Daytona Morning Journal and the Chicago Tribune reported him turning around and going the other way "To satisfy European practice, DePalma turned to cover the course in (the) opposite direction". The Tribune gave a time on the return run of 24.37 seconds or 147.7.

Later the Los Angeles Times also made references to DePalma going both ways. To the American sanctioning body, the AAA who ran the timers and had Fred Wagner there to flag DePalma on his quest, DePalma met all of their criteria. The AAA was not in the habit of feathering the nest of the A.I.A.C.R. and so they were happy to confirm that DePalma held the "world's record".

Unless someone can show me something written at the time by someone present that DePalma ran only one way then I will have to continue to believe that he ran both ways as reported by the press that watched him firsthand. Since such is the case I believe he held the World's Record until Seagrave I believe in 1927-Jim

 

enjoy...

 

Hard to say how it would compare with the others as only two were supposedly built at the time. Disbrow used t-head Wisconsin engines which by 1917 were somewhat out-dated. Interestingly he abandoned conventional racing practice at the time of using half-elliptic rear springs and used the cantilever-style instead. Maybe we will be able to learn more about them in the future?



Michael Ferner has commented on The Old Motor that on June 1, 1918, in an IMCA ten-miler at Saginaw (MI), driver Disbrow took the win in a Disbrow, although we don't at this point know for sure it was one of the two cars unless he has a photo to share w/us.

 

Bob, do you have any more info on this car/pic? Very interesting to see that style tail on a sprinter of (what looks like) the 20's!

 

Jim - I've just had a look at the numbers and even leaving aside the one or two run discrepancy there are some obvious inconsistencies in the de Palma run. The page I linked to claims he didn't do a second run, but I'm certainly not going to argue with your sources: it also specifically says that Milton didn't do a second run due to a fire (seemingly confirmed in the New York Times Apr 28 1920).

So - de Palma

According to the New York Times (Feb 13 1919) de Palma's mile run was done in 24.02 seconds, passing the kilometre in 15.86 seconds.

That gives a speed at the kilometre of 141.043mph. Yet the speed at the mile was - apparently - 149.875mph.

This would mean he had covered the final 667 yards (give or take a foot or two) in 8.16 seconds - which translates into an average speed over that short stretch of just over 167mph.

Now, admittedly that's not impossible, but it does look almost vanishingly unlikely and at a guess (my maths isn't good enough to work it out) to have achieved that he'd have crossed the line at well over 200mph and still accelerating!

When you look at other flying mile and kilometre records the speed is always pretty consistent over both distances - usually within 0.5 mph and with the mile figure generally a little higher - so a discrepancy of nearly 8mph is (shall we say) dubious.

I played around with the numbers with the help of this handy calculator page: http://www.calculatoredge.com/civil engg calculator/Speed Distance Time.htm

I assumed the kilometre speed of 141.043mph was correct and on the "Calculate Distance from Speed and Time" tool applied that speed to the time quoted as the mile. That gave me a distance of 1656.28362 yards - in other words a little less than 104 yards short of a mile!

So, armed with that, on the "Calculate Speed from Distance and Time" tool I applied the time of 24.02 seconds to a distance of 1660 yards. Result - an entirely believable 141.359mph, consistent with a slight increase over the speed over the kilometre. But over a course which was 100 yards short!

The 24.37 second return run you quoted - again calculated over 1660 yards - comes out at 139.329mph, giving a two-way average of 140.344mph.

So, that must ultimately be the reason the AIACR didn't like - and rejected - the AAA's numbers. If the AAA apparently couldn't measure a mile correctly, there must also have been concerns about the accuracy of the measurement of the kilometre. And thus of the accuracy of the whole attempt. Further number-juggling suggests that the kilometre measurement was correct and that the section of the course between the kilometre and mile marks was the one that was 100 yards short. A speed of 141mph or so at the kilometre suggests a time at the mile of about 25.5 seconds.

That's presumably the reason the several records he set over longer distances the next week were never ratified by the AIACR either.

So the one-way kilometre speed looks okay and having said that, it would seem to be safe to assume that de Palma achieved a two-way average speed of about 140mph over a distance of slightly less than a mile and/or over a measured kilometre. Faster than Hornsted, but still just a fraction slower than Burman had managed one-way in 1910.

 

You can see a little more about that car here but I still haven't figured out who the driver was: http://KansasRacingHistory.com/CarthageRaces.htm

 

When you see me post a picture and it just says "enjoy",that means the photo generally fits the the thread but I have no other information on it.I am impressed that Track Rod recognized it from Kansas!

 

Great story. I look forward to reading it when that issue arrive's at my door, hopefully before Christmas. I got the September issue yesterday.

I'm interested in this book but i'm guessing the text is Latin, right?

Just recently i discovered the connection between Anasagasti and Ernst Henry but i don't remember where. It could have been the story of the Peugeot in the July & August issue's of The Automobile or something i saw on a TV show called The Best of the British.

 

Vitesse without writing a dissertation, as a researcher I have to set some standards and rules for myself. It is easy to research and write and speculate based on all sorts of modern day computations and all sorts of undocumented writings but I chose not to interject too much of that if I can. I place a large amount of importance on what was written during the day especially by people that were there and wrote contemporaneously with the event. I read time and again about so and so who was there and says this and that and I do not place any real significance to that if it differentiates from what was written contemporaneously.

I have to live within my own skin and 35 years as a lawyer/skeptic has had an effect on me and how I approach statements and “facts” and computations etc. A talented storyteller can often weave a tale that seems to be rock solid only to completely fall apart on further examination.
So what do we have? We have at least two reporters that were present (Daytona and Chicago personnel) and possibly a third from the LA Times versus the protestations of the AIACR (and possibly ACF in the shadows at the very least) that the run did not meet their criteria. If this was the first such event I may put some credence in it but I place virtually no credence in what they say at this point in time. In 1914 Hornstead ran with the blessing of what I believe is a new rule or edict of the AIACR to run both ways; it was a very impressive run period, no matter what country you call home. The ACF (Automobile Club de France) had crowned themselves the early arbiters of all matters dealing with record runs. It was more than likely not lost on some Americans including some of the stuffed shirts at the AAA. Whether it was how Ford’s record on the lake was worthless, or how Marriot and Stanleys early runs were worthless or Bowden’s Twin Engine Mercedes records were worthless, I am sure the AAA no matter how stuffy they may have been had it with the some of the so-called reasoned opinions of self-appointed experts several thousands of miles away on the other side of the Atlantic.
The net effect of not having a real international sanctioning body with one set of rules certainly had a real negative effect which apparently is lasting up to the present day. Look at us we are still arguing about it. Until the mid 20s when I believe the two way run became the standard and rightfully attempted to bring some order to what had been chaos. That was long overdue. But I place no credibility in what the sanctioning bodies claimed prior to that time-they were simply feathering their own nests. Any reason given to diminish records, as long as it was some reason, then whatever reason be it drivel or otherwise, then it would suffice.
AAA was fully aware of the AIACR and the runs of Hornstead. They chose to ignore the two way requirement. Why-God only knows?

Until the time that an international standard was set we had so called adults on both sides of the Atlantic with an exaggerated view of their own self importance telling both drivers and their fans what record was good and which was worthless. If some both then and now want to use the reasoning of these sanctioning bodies as gospel then God love you, but you will have to excuse me if I try to give proper credit where credit is due. As a fan of all things dealing with speed during this era, I appreciate what the drivers accomplished not what some dufus in some organization tells me to believe. The bickering between the early sanctioning bodies only served to diminish them and not the drivers and the fans.

DePalma went to Daytona fully aware of the AAA and the fact this was a record run to be made on American soil. When AAA showed up to time the runs he complied and AAA in essence ran what they did with the results. It was their game in a sense and you either used their football or you went home. When all was said and done, DePalma claimed he was the fastest man on earth (even faster that the aero record of the day-according to him-a claim I never researched and probably never will). DePalma knew he ran both ways and not because of the AAA but more than likely in spite of the AAA. If the AAA insisted in 1919 on a two way run at that time (prior to 1924 0r 1925 whatever it was), then they most likely thought they would diminish their importance as the sanctioning body (and their one way rule being sufficient) and would be seen as agreeing that the European two way rule as now being supreme. I do not believe the AAA would stoop to such a decision, whether such is right or wrong. DePalma had several patrons that had helped bankroll his racing exploits prior to the great war but during this period his only patron was Packard, who owned the 905 Daytona record car and who rebodied the 299 racer that DePalma then owned. I believe Packard should have pushed for a European representative to monitor the runs but then again even if they did I am sure the AIACR or ACF or whatever would have come up with some reason to diminish the run, be It the ascot or beret that Depalma wore at his celebratory gathering following the run did not meet the stringent rules as set by them.

Truth be told what Hornstead ran in 1914 was heady stuff as was Seagrave in 1927 but DePalma with a pretty decent set between his legs went out and ran 149+, faster than anyone else on either side of the Atlantic and then in spite of the requirements of the AAA turned around and ran 147.7 for a two way average of 148+ (also reported in one of the newspapers). Isn’t it amazing that the reporters got it right and the “experts” with their feet up on their desks thousands of miles away got it wrong, but then again what else would we expect when we were setting useless records on this side of the Atlantic.-Jim

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <woNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w:EnableOpenTypeKerning/> <wontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="&#45;-"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" DefUnhideWhenUsed="true" DefSemiHidden="true" DefQFormat="false" DefPriority="99" LatentStyleCount="267"> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="0" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Normal"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="heading 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 7"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 8"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 9"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 7"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 8"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 9"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="35" QFormat="true" Name="caption"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="10" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" Name="Default Paragraph Font"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="11" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtitle"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="22" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Strong"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="20" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="59" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Table Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Placeholder Text"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="No Spacing"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Revision"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="34" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="List Paragraph"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="29" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Quote"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="30" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Quote"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 1"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 2"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 3"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 4"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 5"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 6"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="19" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="21" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Emphasis"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Subtle Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Intense Reference"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Name="Bibliography"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin-top:0in; mso-para-margin-right:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt; mso-para-margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]-->

 

A fellow who watches this thread informed me sometime ago that this photo was definately taken after the French GP.

I'm posting a photo of a Doozy at what looks to be a boardtrack i think, although that's just one reason for doing so. The reg. number 9234-Y4 on the #16 matches the #6 car in the factory photo.

 

Where can i find some more information on this particular race? Eg; newspaper articles, books, etc..
Any help will be appreciated.

 

Very interesting and a very good Find!

So do we know when the board track photo was taken?

 

'03 Paris Madrid DeDion twin, importation to the USA and as found years later.

 

I love your dedication Richard.

The kilometer time you quoted from The New York Times article is incorrect. The Flying Kilometer time was 14.86 sec. @ 150.534 M.P.H. and the Flying Mile mark was set at 149.875 M.P.H. in 24.02 seconds. I have a full page ad by the Packard Motor Car Company that was printed in The Literary Digest dated March 1st, 1919 glorifying the new world speed marks where it states that de Palma travelled the mile in 24.02 seconds but the speed attained was 149.72 M.P.H.

In all the articles i have regarding Ralph de Palma's FK and FM records on the sands of Daytona Beach, not one mentions that the marks set were achieved over a two way run. It's common knowledge amongst speed junkies with a penchant for history that these records were new American marks and shouldn't be seen as anything else but one has to wonder why someone of Ralph de Palma's status within motor racing circles worldwide did not run to the rules set forth by the AIACR. Jim mentions that there is a possibility that runs were made in both directions and i won't dispute him, so i wonder at this time and question why the many respected historians on this subject have not delved into this. Obviously Jim knows something they don't.

Here are the other records set by de Palma that week, all of which were new 'World Record' marks without confirmation by the AIACR. Perhaps you would like to get that calculator out and do some numbers crunching. I have a theory regarding the possible two way run that Jim has mentioned, although i'm thinking it's in fact a 2 mile run.

I Mile: 24.02 sec.
2 Miles: 49.53 sec.
3 Miles: 1min. 15.04 sec.
4 Miles: 1min. 39.77 sec.
5 Miles: 2min.4.58 sec.
10 Miles: 4min. 9.30 sec.
15 Miles: 6min. 48.75 sec.
20 Miles: 8min. 54.20 sec.

 

Possibly an exchange of body parts between the two cars?

 

I'm not even 100% sure that it is a boardtrack but it sure does look like planks of wood. Another interesting aspect about the photo is the trees? and the direction the car is travelling. Correct me if i'm wrong but weren't all American oval races, boardtrack or otherwise, run anti-clockwise? Hopefully Michael can chime in.

 

I'll try and scan a few pages from the 1903 La Vie au Grand Air in the next few days.

 

Kurtis, it would be great for DePalma to have run according to the AIACR rules but pray tell how was that going to be accomplished? Was there some records run on American soil at this point in time run according to the AIACR rules? None that I am aware of. The AAA was the governing body in the US not the French be it the ACF or the AIACR. It would be so easy if that was the case. If DePalma did, the AAA in their infinite wisdom probably would slapped him with one of their infamous lifetime bans. DePalma was simply a willing participant in following the dictates of the local dictators that controlled "big time" racing in the US be it track racing or record runs. The AAA did not want him to go both ways in my opinion in that then the AIACR would be possibly more important than the AAA-oh the horror of it all. DePalma though I bet without the blessing of Fred Wagner did a 180 and ran the other way-that is why I say it was in spite of the AAA.

According to the press that was there and watched it with their own eyes (I am not some guy behind the curtain putting words in their mouths) he ran both ways. It was DePalma who turned around and ran the other way, as he knew full well of the two way requirement. I am not going to drink the kool-aid of the AIACR unless and until I see a present day account that shows the reporters that were there to have been hallucinating.

The AAA was not an organization that I spend anytime waving the pom-poms for but I certainly put ZERO credence in anything from any other sanctioning bodies. Please tell me which American records during this era that the AIACR accepted as run? I am sure it is a long list. I could go on at length on that matter but why?

Since I started researching I have paid little attention to what others have written (unless they were there and witnessed it and then wrote their account shortly afterwards). I believe research is more than regurgitating what others have written for years. In all of my years of research I have come up with virtually nothing where the Americans have questioned the records of the Europeans, can the same be said from across the pond? I think not.

Prior to I believe 1924 there was no died in the wool international standards for record runs. The AIACR requirements made the most sense but it was not universal no matter how much one wants to believe otherwise. DePalma like the gentleman he was complied with the AAA. The press reported it-that is a fact go look it up. I will gladly accept my medicine if someone can point to an account that flies in the face of what was written at the time by the press. I do believe they had some sense of what they were witnessing. If you are going to point me to some article written in some book by some self-proclaimed expert I can tell you I will probably not give it the credence that you may think it deserves. Gary Doyle and I are not part of some DePalma conspiracy to rewrite history-maybe in our small way correct it.-Jim

 

with all this LSR talk anyone look into Teddy Tetzlaff running the Blitzen Benz at Bonneville?

 

Well, now. If I was a conspiracy theorist then I'd be saying to myself that the AAA had later realised the error - possibly after exclamations of incredulity from the Place de la Concorde - and then (having already claimed a speed of over 149) explained the discrepancy as a simple typo ... stranger things have happened

The figure of 15.86 seconds for the kilometre appears in several other daily papers on February 12th, 13th and 14th: one of them credits the report to Associated Press.

 

I think we can all agree that some of what is "accepted history" is in fact not the truth. Or at the very least not the whole truth. I've been doing some very deep research into the 1938-46 period and have found major mistakes, distortions and omissions in what are considered standard works on that era: Blight's "French Sports Car Revolution", Boddy's "Brooklands" and Nixon's "Racing the Silver Arrows" to name but three.

And that's before even considering the hundreds of statistical errors perpetuated over decades!

I did say at the start that the AAA and AIACR didn't always see eye to eye. The AAA were of course free to set their own rules, but the AIACR had set down their standard in 1912: the Hornsted two-way run at Brooklands was the first LSR set under those rules.

 

I know Tetzlaff did run the Blitzen Benz at Bonneville in 1914, just don't remember the speed or the details off the top of my head...

...but I know H.A.M.B.er Rapid Robert does ..hopefully he will chime in.

 

I can chime in here, briefly, about the 1914 run by Tetzlaff in Utah. First of all, it was quite an off-the-cuff affair. Tetzlaff and others, as part of the E. A. Moross touring show, were in Salt Lake City for a day of hippodromed races at the State Fair grounds dirt track. He made an exhibition run with the Benz. Behind the scenes, a group of Salt Lake businessmen saw an opportunity to use the fastest car in the world and the group of famous cars and drivers to promote their idea of an automobile road that followed the Western Pacific RR, west of Salt Lake and into Nevada. At the time, Utah was in the grip of a big spat with Carl Fisher and the Lincoln Highway Association about the route of the road through the state. Utah business interests did not favor the LHA plans and did everything they could to derail them. The ringleader was a man named Bill Rishel.
Long story short, Rishel conviced Moross that the salt pan at Salduro Siding, adjacent the the WPRR grade would be a good place to try and lower the mark for the flying mile and in the process, make the salt known to the auto world as the place to test cars. Auto makers would then flock to Utah and the salt flats, over a new and improved road, bringing notoriety and dollars to the state.
Rishel petitoned the AAA for a sanction and after much wrangling was granted a sanction for a half-mile attempt. Not exactly what he wanted, but because of the lack of time and mostly poor planning on his part, he took what he could get.
The automobiles, the Benz No. 2, three Maxwell racers, of which 2 were kerosene fueled, a 1911 Marmon Vanderbilt Cup racer, and a Nyberg dirt track car, along with several Model T auto-polo cars used as tow vehicles, were unloaded onto the salt at Salduro Siding, early on the morning of Monday August 10, 1914.
Over the next 3 days many timed runs were made. Stop watches and flagmen were used. The course, 2 miles long and 200 yards wide, was surveyed by a Salt Lake civil engineer. Several of the cars experienced performance troubles largely due to the altitude. The Benz caught fire on its first practice run and Tetzlaff and his mechanic Domenich Basso, found the car to be quite out of adjustment.
Final runs were held on Wednesday August 12 before a paying crowd that had vertured out on a special excursion train. May dignitaries were in present including Gov. William Spry who was in favor of the road Rishel was promoting. There is some documentation that indicates that Tetzlaff and Basso sorted out the Benz enough to get it through the measured half-mile at 150 mph that morning. All the cars present went through the course with various results. Two motorcycles came out for the day also, and Indian and a Harley-Davidson, both local and ran as well.
Tetlaff's official time through the measured half-mile, one way, was 12 3/5 sec, or 25 1/5 sec. for the mile for a speed of 142.85 mph. Everyone thought Burman's Daytona time had been bested.
But the AAA had second thoughts due to Rishel's badgering about granting a sanction for a mile after the fact. Even though Tetzlaff was timed for a fast 1/2 mile, it was somewhat fraudulent to just double it and call it an official record for the mile. They withdrew the sanction, noting other irregularities, including the use of stopwatches, and no offical AAA observer present, which angered Rishel since he was a member of the AAA and ran the chapter in Salt Lake. After it was discredited, Moross distanced himself from it, although the numbers appear painted on the tail of the Benz in photos taken after 1914. Tetzlaff stated that he had never driven on a more perfect surface for setting speed records than the Utah salt. He wondered out loud to newspapermen covering the event about the speeds he and Basso could squeeze out of the Benz if they could spend 3 weeks on the salt with it instead of just 3 days. All the other drivers echoed his sentiments. He vowed to return to the salt, on day, with another fast car and try it again. He never did. The centennial of the Salduro Speed trials will be in August 2014, probably during Speed Week.
Bob.

 

Vitesse I agree with your latest assessment. I have researched not only early auto racing and found discrepancies, some of which I have written and some I hope to in the future but also early Cadillac. I wrote a piece on early Cadillac a number of years ago with the false hope I suppose that Cadillac would do their homework but such is not the case. Just because an error was written years ago and repeated hundreds of times does not make it correct.

As to the AAA versus AIACR I happen to agree that the two way runs are more determinative of a true speed run and when Hornstead ran in 1914, AAA should have adopted the two way system. Sadly they did not consult me. The good ole American boys though that ran according to the dictates of the AAA should not have history look upon them as making second class runs. If they had been allowed to run both ways they most surely would have. Once again my respect lies with the men that made the runs not those that sat back and criticized after the fact. Jim

 

Kurtis I think the race referred to was the inaugural 250 miler on feb 28th...

 

The AAA did require Milton to run both ways, forward and reverse