Well, what do you say when you spend good money and the product is CRAP? Yesterday, I went for a little spin. It was sunny with temps in the high 50's. Nice, crisp roadster weather. So, I'm all cozy in my So-Cal swag, when all of a sudden... pop..pop..pop..pop. WTF? My T's running great, but there's a faint popping noise coming from the right side of my engine. I get home and find exhaust carbon on my right header flange. Again, WTF? I remove the header and the rear tube is cracked 3/4 of the way around! They are Speedway's "classic" style. This set is only 6-8 months old! WTF? But what REALLY pisses me off is how these damn headers were welded together. The tubes are welded to the flange on the backside, but NOT on the front side! Why would a company do this crap? It just doesn't make sense. Looks like stress and vibration combined with the weight of the collecter was the problem. But being welded on both sides of the flange would have helped a little. At least where it cracked. It cracked right where a weld should have been. My last set was the same way, but held up. I'm going to call Speedway, but as a dealer, all they'll do is refer me to PERTRONIX. In other words, I'm going to spend the morning getting the run around. Luckily, I still had my old set and swapped out the fucked up side. The money I had been saving for upholstery will now go to a new set of headers. I'm leaning towards Lakester's. My thinking is that shorter tubes will be less stress on the main tube. I've been doing my research and Matt at lakeheaders.com seems to have a good product. Speedway's pushing a set, but they are made by Pertronix. If they are welded right, they could be a good choice as well. So, question is, has anyone used Speedway's lake headers and are they welded on BOTH sides of the flange? Are Matt's welded on both sides? Matt's are cheaper, but they aren't heat coated like Speedway's. How much does Matt charge to coat them?
I'm away from my shop but Matt's headers are top notch. A friend has the speedway ones and you can feel the difference in the quality and the welds are much better. I'd buy another set in a heartbeat.
Fred, I would return those to Speedway if you can and go with Matt. If Matt has no facilities available to coat them you can probably find someone on your own. Or, you can go with Sandersons. I have seen some people complain about some things at Sanderson, but my experience has been completely the opposite. Mine on my 27 are about 25 years old and have been great. When I redid the car a few years ago I sent them back to Sanderson to have the coating freshened up, and they not only did not charge me, but they paid the shipping costs ! But we have dealt with Matt too and he is first rate all the way around. My Son bought a set of Patriot headers for his T bucket and we had a lot of modifying to do to get them to fit. Even the mounting holes were drilled off and we had to oblong all of them. Don
Can't say anything about Matt coating headers and the cost, but he does good work. I know that pertronix, dougs headers and a couple other companies have joined up but i am not going to talk to an ignition company about headers. Matt makes a very nice header, for sure, it will be hand welded not done by a machine where it is convenient for it to weld.
Thanks. Great advise all around, guys. I had forgot about Sanderson. They're Limefires are $650 and look nice, but they want $185 for a turnout. I'll call Matt tomorrow and see what he's got.
I'm kinda disappointed with Speedway too. I bought one of their steering columns and in the first five minutes it was broke, the cheap plastic hazard switch broke and shorted out my wiring harness. I called them and they said they could'nt do anything I had to call the manufacture, so I did that and they would'nt warranty it so I ended up buying another switch to make it work. I'm very disappointed in their quality of parts that they sell.
Many of the Biggest name brands of headers have been welded on only one side of the flange for the past 50+ years. The crack in your header is is not due to what side the weld is on but more likely the style of header with the weight that hangs off these T Bucket type headers and I'm sure no support on the muffler section. That is a hell of a lot of weight and vibration without any thin to hold them up. Would you mount regular long tube headers with the mufflers mounted to them and then not put any mounts for the exhaust system? I doubt it, and if you did, the headers would eventually break. Maybe you should do a little research before saying things like that. Although PerTronix bought Ermie Immerso's (3 time AMBR winner) exhaust company 10 years ago to get into the exhaust business, the man that headed this up at PerTronix was the main guy at Hooker Headers for 27 years - so there was plenty of Exhaust manufacturing knowledge there. When Doug decided to retire, he wanted to make sure that Doug's Headers would be represented by a company that would carry on his reputation for a high quality product that makes good power, and he agreed that PerTronix Exhaust division could do that. And when we added JBA Exhaust to the fold 4+ years ago it made us one of, if not the largest manufacturer of Hot Rod & Muscle Car headers in the industry. When I joined the company I brought an additional 18 years of exhaust design and manufacturing experience. And keep in mind Hooker is owned by a private equity firm that is nothing but a money firm that owns parent company Holley Carburetor (and there are no original Hooker folks there) Hedman's company makes Oil Pans, Motor Mounts and Chrome accessories. Flowtech is just another division of Holley Dynatech is owned by Speedway Motors And along the same line of thought, Mallory Ignition and Accel are owned by a Gasket Co (Mr. Gasket) The point being it doesn't really matter what the parent company does, all of these brands are quality products made by enthusiasts who bring a lot of knowledge to the industry.
You cant beat Matt's headers, i have a set on my 30 A and just bought a set for my 27 T. Good quality headers.........PINCHER
You make valid points, but my old set was mounted the same way for 5 years. I know other T Buckets are running the same style/setup and theirs have not broken. Maybe I got a bad set. It happens. It sounds like you work for them, so how come they don't weld on the outside AND inside? Cost? Time? If I were making them, that's how I'd do it.
My banger header by Matt is only welded on the back. Very low miles on it but holding up well and the welds do look great
Good points to be sure. The T bucket style heades have a lot of weight hanging there and I have not seen the OPs car to know if there is any support for the headers anywhere or if they just hang off the engine. If that is the case welding them on the outside of the flange would have made no difference. The crack would just have appeared beside the weld.
No support, but as mentioned, my old 5 year old set didn't have a support. The guys I know that are running these headers have not had any break. So, I'm calling it an isolated incident and moving to lakes. Which would have less weight to support. On my headers, there is a gap on the outside flange where the tubes insert. It's about 1/32". Maybe that's okay, but why wouldn't you want to weld up that gap? That gap could lead to some flex. The crack is right where that weld should have been.
I have never heard of anyone welding both the inside and outside of the flange. The ones I've seen or used are welded on the inside only.
We used to weld them on the outside only, But it causes problems on certain motors as the bolt holes are very close to the header tube - Small Block Ford being the worst case. When we switched the Patriot line to using a sealing bead on the inside for better gasket sealing, it was no longer necessary on the outside. The cracking is generally caused by the weight and vibration and a weld on the outside would just mean that it would crack slightly further out. You can never tell when this is going to happen really, these headers (T Bucket style) are just a crap shoot due to the weight and length and the fact that very few people support them. I had them on my Graffiti style Model A coupe. The first set was another brand that were brand new on the car when we got it. They cracked after about 300 miles or so. I put a set of ours on there and they were on for years, until we sold the car in fact. The new owner decided he wanted to change from the Sprint style that I was running to the Classic style that we also make. He also added muffler inserts (that I did not run) they broke after about 4 months. I got him another set, he added some supports to the frame and they have been on trouble free for over a year now.
Another plus for baffle that Matt makes as well. That with a little fiberglass packing around it really tones it down.
First off, thanks Hotrodron for adding clarity to this. I like getting good input, especially from people who make the stuff we use. What you added about welding on the outside does make sense. So, if I were to get the Pertronic lake headers, would you think the weight of the collecter would be a problem? They have a new design without the down tube that looks bitchin'. For what it's worth, here's a pic of the crack.
The Lakesters without a turn down have very little weight and I have not heard of anybody having an issue, even when using the baffle we offer. Those are my design and so far so good. The ones with the turn downs to a full exhaust need support on the exhaust just like any other header - But I really don't think you will have an issue with the new style, and they do carry a one year warranty that will cover cracking as well.
You're a good salesman. They aren't available at JEG'S, SUMMIT or SPEEDWAY until the first week of November. They're cheaper with them versus the PETRONIC'S website. So, I'll wait a little. They are a nice design. I like how you mounted the turnout. That's got me leaning toward them as well as Matt's. It's going to be a toss up. Thanks for the info.
No, it's not usually done on mass produced headers, but my experience in Boat Drag Racing & Dirt Track Open Wheel stuff has shown that a 1" to 1 1/2" wide bead on the Outside of the flange, Both above and below the port will go a long way to preventing these unsupported pipe stress cracks....
Fred, in addtion to the Limefires I have on my 27 we have bought two other sets from them. My Son Dan had a set of Jaysters on the 455 Olds in his rpu, and I had another set of Limefires on my 23. All of them have been really good quality. On the set on my 23 I told Sanderson to not put the down tubes on them that hook up to an exhaust system, so I just made a pair of baffles and used Sanderson's turnouts . That combo made it pretty quiet, not at all objectionable IMO. Here is the set I had on the 23. And this is the set I have currently on my 27. This set does have down tubes and I run through a full exhaust system, but can uncap them in about a minute or so. Don
Unsupported, just a matter of time before they break. Especially if they were built to a price, using thinner material.
I recall a 60s or 80s interview article (probably NOT in one of the Petersopn mags, maybe POP Hotordding) with one of the name header makers. Maybe Doug Thorley, or maybe not. He offered some construction hints, like gas welding a built up bead all around the tube end before welding to the flange on the engine side to make the thichnesses a little closer together, and finishing by bronze welding a fillet all around each tube where it enters the flange from the world side. Makes sense, since if well done the bronze melts at a much lower temp than steel, so there is no possibility of undercutting, and the profile of a bronze fillet, and the lower Modulus of elasticity of bronze would both work to provide a gentler low stress transition for the tube.
Same style. Same weight. Don, I always liked your headers. The new Petronics look like them, but the turnout is seamless. If you get a chance, check them out.
Don't know how much it will help you out, but I have a brand new set of jet coated Sanderson turnouts I would let go for $100 bucks.
Here. You have to search the store. http://pertronix.shptron.com/products/productdetail/part_number=H8084-1/591.0.1.1 Header #: H8084-1 Turn outs #: H3811-1 Mufflers #: H3845
Here are a set of lake pipes made by Matt. The workmanship is awesome. I bought them tacked together so I finished welding them and had them ceramic coated. Couldn't of been happier.
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