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318 Poly dragster engine

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Dolmetsch, Jul 21, 2012.

  1. theman440
    Joined: Jun 28, 2012
    Posts: 347

    theman440
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    Hi Don, you mentioned (above) $1500 econo big block, Chrysler Power Magazine '97. Do you know Roland? I've known him since I was a kid. My dad helped with tech articles and was the wrench on the CPPA project Dart. You also mentioned you have a Max Wedge car (different post) - you sound like somebody I've heard stories about from the CPM southwest director (then and currently) Marty A. If you are that Don, It is a pleasure to meet you and I will be following this thread intently to learn anything I can. BTW - Chrysler Power Magazine is back (maybe you already know)?
     
  2. Thanks for actually addressing my comments. Mostly I agree with you. The las(t few engines I built(except for D.W.'s) was our short track circle burner. Light parts make for less centrifical effect. No balancer. As little counterweights as possible without shaking it apart. Flexplate instead of flywheel. Again thanks.
     
  3. Marty is my hero. First guy to build my OR build and run it (other than me). Yes I know Roland. I wrote all the Old Reliable articles for him. In fact it was him who talked me into putting it in a book which i am by the way still selling some 15 years later. It is now only in DVD format after going through some seven printings. I have done a bit for Roland and CMS a couple a three years or so ago but nothing major.
    Yes I have a 1963 Dodge 440 series 2dr hrtp. with a stage III 426 max wedge running the Nascar Rev 2 single four intake. There is some great video of it at www.dropshots.com/Dolmetsch It isnt a show car but a driver. Tis fun to take it around the block. Has more then I need. (I didnt think i would ever say that!) It has by way the FORGED JE pistons just so no one gets the idea I wont use Forged pistons. The 440 OR build popular with many Mopar budget racers is mine. 560 HP for under $4000. And will run forever and a day if cared for.
    When I wrote for Roland .Marty did as well as Dan Dvorak whom I met and occasionaly heard from over the years as well as Steve Magnate who has gone on to great fame. Say hi to any and all you see. No I did not know it is back. Got a link?
    Don
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2012
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  5. theman440
    Joined: Jun 28, 2012
    Posts: 347

    theman440
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    I remember the Old Reliable articles - I have quite a few old CPM issues. Here is a link for ya Don. http://chryslerpower.com/ You can find Roland and Marty on Facebook if you want to re-connect. Marty always speaks highly of you and your speed acumen. Marty's OR build went into his Challenger, think it ended up going 11.50's. It sure sounded good. Not sure if you know or not but that engine ended up in the Black '70 Charger in the first Fast & Furious movie. I'd love to have a beer with you and pick your brain...maybe one day. I think you should enter your Poly build in that Engine Masters Contest (Car Craft I think?) I've benched raced the idea (so to speak) with Marty and some of my other pals. You could blow some minds and kick some SBC butt. I think the biggest hurdle would be the intake because you have to use a cast intake (no sheet-metal) Maybe something could be adapted? Hell, you probably have done it already. Again great to meet you Don, and I'll say hi to Marty and Roland for you.

    Jeff
     
  6. No I did not know that. You made my day.
    I have made some intakes. In fact I am finishing up a tunnel ram for my slant six right now. 2 500 Holley 2 Bbls. f As far as the 318 goes first I will get it working well then worry about getting fancy. I did spend a lot of time on the milling machine giving it a modern plenum. I will post some pics later. Also have a windage tray designed for my pal Mikes Hemi rail . Since the pans are similar he copied the cardboard pattern I made him and made me one as well in stiff steel.
    Man I am stunned. I knew Marty had done a great job on the OR build but I never knew about the Movie engine. That is exciting. I well remember his several phone calls here as he was so nervous about removing all the exotica from his Challenger engine and doing the OR build. Still he had the guts to follow through. After his first 11 second pass (with power windows and all;>) He phoned be about 1 am in the morning to let me know his first pass had netted him an 11. We ran ours for about 11 years . One driver had to quit because the hard launches combined with his job took a toll on his neck. I had 3 driver in all. and occasionally I would take a turn but am not much of a driver. Too slow on the lights. We constantly heard "its really a big rollercammed stroker , etc etc . One day i showed up with a wooden prototype tunnel ram on the car. It ran a 11.40s right off the trailer (4150 lb race weight. ) Pump gas solid Racer Br cam 440 .030 over and 452 heads ported in house. Used to hang the wheels almost a foot on launch when bite was good. What i liked best was the sound. I could sit in the staging lanes beside a BB Camaro and hold the engine at a certain RPM level and see the Camaro guys tapping their tach with their hand to make sure it was working cause they could no longer hear their own engine. Kind of mean I guess but sure was fun. Later I had the wooden part of the manifold cast at a local foundy. Paul Amado in Kitamat BC has it now and runs it on an OR build in his Dart. Last time he phoned he had just won the season opener out there. Sorry I got carried away. Just remembering the old days. I pop a link here to what I am up to these days. I am in the blue slant six car. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v3No_qOj9I You can show the lads at CP. other car is a 454 with Hilborns.
    Thanks for the CP link Don
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2012
  7. TR Waters
    Joined: Nov 18, 2006
    Posts: 1,439

    TR Waters
    Member
    from Vermont
    1. Early Hemi Tech

    I had a half page typed up, but deleted it. All I have to ask is that you please show the dyno results when you are done. You are going to dyno it, correct?
     
  8. No I dont dyno I weigh the car and run it at the track Far more accurate and a lot cheaper. If you want the one I just talked about was exactly 4150 lbs with driver and turned 119.11 mph.
    Why dont I dyno? # 1 I dont have one. # 2 I am not paying anyone $600 of totally unproductive time on their dyno to tell me something I can find out at the track in 10 or 11 seconds with greater accuracy. NO CAR ,not once, ever, went faster then it had HP to push it. I have seen far far to many 600 and 800 Hp dynoed engines running mid 12s at the track at 112 -114 MPH. If they were really that strong they should be hitting 120s to 140s or more.
    Now I suspect and I might be wrong there is a wee bit of mistrust in your voice. That is OK. Probably normal. My engines are quite capable of speaking for me. I dont just pop a figure on a claim it. I try it and work on it till I get it running where I want it to be. I believe my friend World Record Holder in A/sA is known as No Dyno Dan so I am not alone . In fact I have his card on my wall beside me and it says that right at the top. I have no interest in pretend stuff. I also know that whether something is right or wrong or true or not has absolutley nothing to do with who or how many believe it.
    So no I wont be dynoing it. I will be racing it. I may not achieve my goal but I will try. I know it wont be easy but I have been at it now for 40 plus years.
    I hope you are ok with that. If not there isnt much else I can do.
    Don
     
  9. theman440
    Joined: Jun 28, 2012
    Posts: 347

    theman440
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    Hey Don - my '66 Coronet weighs 3650 (race weight) with good air at 2100ft it goes 125...what kind of HP numbers ?
    BTW talked to Marty last night he will probably contact you. I had to tell him the story and showed him this thread.
     
  10. 570.67 HP flywheel for 125MPH at 3650 pounds (513hp rear wheel )

    Marty already emailed me Thanks. It has been an exciting day for me. He says his engine is still running. Been a long time since he built it! It really is an OlD RELIABLE!
    Don
     
  11. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the parting line of the rods and caps have been cut, the new bolts have arrived and are installed. (pioneer 180,000). The burrs have been filed at the parting line so the rod doesnt break my wrists by snagging on the stone when resizing. Perhaps today I will torque them up and clean up the sides slightly before going down to my pals and resizing them on the sunnen. He refused my $ for the rod bolts. This build is going good so far. I hope it continues!
    I have to package the cam and ship it off for the regrind then out for nitriding. I have to get down to brass tacks on finalizing my grind. I may talk to Comp to see if they are interested in doing it because they have given me good service, have a huge lobe library and can take care of the nitriding for me too. Otherwise it will be off to my pal in TO if he has a good master I can use in this project.
    Re the rods. Nowadays it is often little more expense buying H beam rods then buying bolts and paying to have them resized and balanced EXCEPT these pistons are for pressed pins only, no pin lock grooves so it is easier for me to use the 360 rods and resize then go the other route since H beam rods are almost aways for full floating pins. Were this a bucks up project a set of custom made forgings and a set of eagle or scat rods would have been a no brainer. And spiral locks would have been used to secure the pins
    Don
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  12. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    I remember seeing Teflon buttons used to keep the pin centered in the piston. My friend, Al Liest, built a 406 sbc for his J/F dragster with 351 Cleveland heads. He made buttons for that and I never heard him say anything bad about that. Cheap and easy. Seems so cheap and easy, if it was good everyone would do it
     
  13. lippy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2006
    Posts: 6,825

    lippy
    Member
    from Ks

    I've heard of aluminum buttons on the pins and nylatron buttons on the skirts but never a nylatron pin button! Lippy
     
  14. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    Al used teflon, I think. maybe Delron. needless to say, you need a full skirt piston.
     
  15. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

    :confused:
     
  16. theman440
    Joined: Jun 28, 2012
    Posts: 347

    theman440
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    "What i liked best was the sound. I could sit in the staging lanes beside a BB Camaro and hold the engine at a certain RPM level and see the Camaro guys tapping their tach with their hand to make sure it was working cause they could no longer hear their own engine. Kind of mean I guess but sure was fun" - this is classic, keep stirrin' it up Don!
     
  17. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    Al thought the Boss 351 heads should give him more top end than Chevy heads. Remember he is limited to iron heads by the NHRA. Made for a strange looking engine and it didn't seem worth the effort to me
     
  18. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

    Everything bolted up? intake, ect?
     
  19. if it was good everyone would do it
    Ohh~~~~~~~~~~~~! That is the most invalid statement in the world. Gives me the shivers it does. Everything that was ever developed was poopooed and that phrase was heard. I know you really dont think that way anyway.
    Re buttons Way back when when many of you were just a twinkle in your fathers eye. I had pin buttons in my 392 Hemi in a set of Jahns forged which were round as mentioned above. The buttons were made by Ansen. Not too many days back while cleaning up some old books I found my orignal catalog from which I ordered them. If I come across it again I will show it if that is OK. I have also seen them made from aluminum. Like mentioned before pistons were full skirted or at least round in the pin hole area. I tend to think the practice was discontinued as the skirts got carved away rather then there was anything wrong with the idea. My specialty as some might have guessed from my old friends Email is the BB Mopar. It is as produced a pressed pin engine and over the years I got good with that design to the point I consider fulll floating pins to be a pain because of the extra hardware. A properly fitted pressed pin simply does not ever give trouble . (BTW properly fitted does not mean out of the box. ) Spiral locks are also good if one must use a floated pin as with aftermarket rods but my personal preference is now pressed pin. When I still had my own machne shop equipment I did actually press them in, too. My pal uses the heat method which I am not particularly in love with but to be truthful have had no trouble with them either. I am almost anal about pin fit. Tis the area of a lot of grief in engines street or race and is often passed by with no concern. Can cause scuffing, scoring, pin failure or even piston fracture. And can be prevented in just a few minutes prior to piston rod assembly. But enuf of that . on with the project!
    Don<!-- / message -->
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  20. Seems to me we have some video somewhere of this actually going on. I will keep an eye out for it.
    Don
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  21. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    I'm not sure what "ect" covers. The intake is a three piece Hilborn with a custom center piece Al made. The engine is quite wide. 400 SBC block and Al had BHJ make some torque plates for the Chevy with the bores undersize. He counter sunk the bolt holes and surfaced the deck surface of the block at a slight angle with a matching angle on the plates. The plates were drilled and tapped for the Ford head bolts and then lapped to the block and fastened down. It's a dry block (filled with Hard Block) and I don't know what if anything Al used for a sealer between the plate and block. The plate and block where then honed to finish size and the Ford heads bolted on. There is a lot of JB Weld showing around the pushrod guide plates and the whole top of the head. I milled off the exhaust ports and Al installed raised port plates. He raised the intake ports by grinding and a lot more JB Weld. He now runs the 14 degree Australian iron heads so I guess the Fordolay wasn't all he had hoped. PS> The reason for the angle on the block/plate mating surface was that Al felt the rings would better survive the slight upset that remained even after honeing them togeather if it wasn't all at once. At the time I was running my 32 Plymouth with the Y block Ford head at El Mirage and Al said that was where he got the idea.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  22. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    I got one inquiry about Al's engine already. I am not sure what is better about a Fordolay than just using a Ford block. Seems like a more straight forward way to get the Cleveland heads.
     
  23. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,723

    George
    Member

    This is what I meant by "Ect" didn't see how all that was going to work w/o a bunch of effort. Heard that the C heads were inspired by the BBC heads(they were supposedly inspired by the Poly) so it would seem more logical to run a BBc or build a 400 Ford with real C or BOSS 351 heads

     
  24. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    Al's engine is the exact opposite of what this thread is about. And I apologize for hijacking your thread.
     
  25. Back in the 1960s when i was at Centenneial College in TO for my advanced MEch trade school course we had a instructor Ronzley (sic?) who was into bowtie stuff. At the time he had a 153 Chvy II engine on his bench. He had bronzed up many of the holes in the deck" and redrilled them using a V8 gasket pattern to mount a "fuelie" head from a Corvette. Other then time consuming it didnt appear to be any great difficulty. I was not permitted to talk with him ever as my actual instructor Herr Mueller , now disguised as Mr Miller said if me and Ronzley got too close "Der vood feuerwerks be" . Mr Miller was somewhat of a genius himself having set a world motorcycle speed record in the 1930s so I was content to do as i was told. He too was a great instructor on the inner fiunctions of engines. In fact he was misssing one arm and when describing the internal function of cam design in an engine would get so animated his arm stub would get flappping and he would holler at it in his native tongue and grab it and hold it still. I would stop and pay tribute to him at this moment as he really knew his subject.
    Anyway back to my story.
    Also not long after the team from Karbelt Speed and Custom known as Hope Lang and Riddel built the 6 cyl Anglia that went on to win and hold record in G or H gas. They had done something similar to Ronzleys ChevII engine with a 292 Chev truck motor.
    And then there are the Clevland heads sectioned in three and welded back together on the Ford 300 sixes.
    I know some people wonder if it was wise or worth the work. I know for sure it was certainly interesting. Everytime you step off the beaten path you learn something you otherwise would never have known. Sometimes the significance of what some of these bold experimenters accomplish is lost on the masses. It would be my suggestion one should get to be their friend and ply them with a cup of Timmy Ho's (or Starbucks if you are unforunate enuf not to have Tim Hortons in your area.) I would suggest you ask them questions and listen to how they got this or that idea and why. You will be surprised what you will learn. And it may not have anything to do with Clevland heads on a Chev 400 either but some somewhat hidden understanding of how and engine REALLY works. Most of these guys are a bit crusty and not real friendly. They got that way from people mocking them. Doesnt mean they are stupid. Just means they are a bit misunderstood. I have great admiration for such ventures. Even Mr Ronzleys despite the fact he disliked me. Not every good thing comes in a plastic vacuum pack covered in Gold anodiztion with the word billet somewhere on the box and a hi $$$$$ price tag.
    Don
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2012
  26. llonning
    Joined: Nov 17, 2007
    Posts: 681

    llonning
    Member

    I really enjoy the stories you have to tell. Especially if they are like the one above. I have always been interested about "out of the box" thinking. Thanks for the stories and the information you impart to us all.

    Len
     
  27. Rusty O'Toole
    Joined: Sep 17, 2006
    Posts: 9,657

    Rusty O'Toole
    Member

    Re the futility of light weight pistons or forged pistons. Wonder how this applies to old long stroke engines like 4 3/4 stroke Chrysler flathead six. I know they were prone to breaking pistons, I also know on today's highways we are asking them to run for long periods at higher RPMs than they were really designed for.

    So the question is, should I use the NOS Chrysler pistons I have in stock or buy expensive Ross pistons which are lighter and stronger?

    Is there anything I can do to the stock pistons to make them last longer?

    What about modern low tension rings vs the OEM 1959 Perfect Circle chrome rings?
     
  28. Low tension is great for racing but can be a bit of a problem in street use especially for a customers engine. Chrome rings are also maybe not the best. I use exclusivley now Hastings rings. I use the moly rings in a fresh bored motor , If i was doing an old style ring job without reboring which I no longer would do but used to many years back I use Hastings cast rings. If I am racing I use Hastings Race rings of the low tension variety.
    The old pistons especially the slotted skirt were not the best. If you have got the gold call Ross. I have used them many times and have been satisfied. If you dont have that much gold to spare take another look at the stockers. Pistons usually break when they have too much clearance. When they have too little they scuff and score. Between these two is a sweet spot. Piston clearance used to be given with a tolerence. I aim for the high side of the tolerence. Then I know i am still in spec but I know no matter what takes place the piston will not scuff or score should it get a wee bit warm. This has worked for me well as i simply dont have problems with pistons. I have built a few of those old flattys but usually for marine use. A wise rodder would take a hard look at a Chrysler Crown Six cyl marine engine. They make decent power and quite simply dont give trouble ever, despite the fact in a boat there is little rest. Oil pan volume and lots of cooling are the big differences. Safe max speed for this engine is probaly 4300 RPM. With that much stroke it is on self destruction above that and there is nothing you or I can do about that. Everything has limits. Piston Speed in Feet per minute is something I spend a lot of time thinking about.
    Don
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
  29. Fresh off the sunnen hone this rod is now as good as new, probably better (more accurate) I do not use the pinch method nor do I use wave bolts or serated ones. It is a personal choice but I feel I do not want to introduce any stress into the rod from resizing or bolts. Probably that is silly but it is just how I feel.
    For those who might wonder how can a rod be resized and not need an old ball bearing here is a quick description.
    First the rod is dissambled and the bolts removed. The caps and the rod proper are put through a cap cutter which machines a predetermined amount off the mating servce of each. I dont know what others use but I like around .003" off each. If I used the pinch method I could probably take only .002" but that is another story. Now the rod and cap are cleaned and reassembled and the bolts torqued or stretched depending on your choice. The hole for the bearing is now almost oval being closer together top and bottom and almost normal at the parting line. The rod is honed back round to a spec given in the bearing boks called "housing bore." A good machnist can do this and not even measurably change centre to centre length. A creative one can use a version of this method to correct minor differences in centre to centre length . After intial resizing I let the rods cool for about an hour since they get warm machining them. Then I go through again and correct to zero. Typically they will shrink 2 tenths (.0002") Of all machine work rod resizing is often the most accurate in normal automotive machine shop work as we work to tenths of a thousandth rather then thousandths . (.0001 instead of .001") There is a tolerence for rod resizing. I try to ignore it and work to zero. I must say though It has been about 10 years since I resized a set of rods so I was a wee bit nervous. Thanks to Harrry Wilson for the offer to use his hone. Not many folks would offer that.
    I also promised to show the rough machned plenum in my single 4 bbl intake . I still have some hand blending to do but this used to mount a WCFB carter four barrel (pre AFB) The difference is huge. Plenums are one area manifold have changed. Port sizes believe it or not are kind of restricted by engine design so this is an area one can work at. Since the Holley 750 (3310) will not fit the old WCFB bolt pattern I cast here in my small shop an adapter spacer to make the transition good and allow me to mount the Holley on the antique manifold . The spacer is not much past "as cast" but we will wax it a bit to make it prettier before we use it.
    Don
    Tomorrow I will balance the rods.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 13, 2012

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