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Rag Joint vs. U-Joint

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Jeem, May 31, 2012.

  1. Jeem
    Joined: Sep 12, 2002
    Posts: 5,882

    Jeem
    Alliance Vendor

    Pushed away from the drawing board....had to, losing my mind.

    Anyway, topic for discussion, debate, whatever...

    Without getting too much into whether it is trad. or not, what do people prefer when having to put a joint in their steering shaft? I think, by in large, most prefer modern u-joiunts like those from Borgesen or Flaming River or... I know, speaking for myself, I'll pry open the wallet and opt for u-joints, BUT what if the shaft direction change is minute? Seems to me a rag joint would be the better option. Because in the event of a failure, a rag joint, by design, is still captured together. A u-joint, as good as they are, if it fails it's bye-bye, NO connection.

    Well, anyway, I'd love to come back and read some of y'all's opinions on this.
     
  2. Normbc9
    Joined: Apr 20, 2011
    Posts: 1,121

    Normbc9
    Member

    The Rag Joint is cheaper and easier to build than the U-joints. In the aircraft industry in the old cable control days the systems had some Rag and some U joints depending on the stress and the need. The US automakers went from U joints to Rag joints in the steering shafts needs due to the fact it was cheaper and didn't use as much room on the shaft requiring less assembly line time. Costs were their reason to change. Bigger profits were their desires.
    Normbc9
     
  3. Johnny Gee
    Joined: Dec 3, 2009
    Posts: 12,600

    Johnny Gee
    Member
    from Downey, Ca

    A Rag Joint purpose is to take out the road vibration in the colum, Thats it!. Not ment to be used as a U Joint no matter how slight the angel is.

    From Borgeson.........
    On some factory applications, a flexible coupling or Rag Joint was used to attach the column to the steering box when there was perfect alignment. If the original column or box is changed, the stock coupling may not work. Borgeson offers the largest variety of spline and DD sizes to fit most applications. Flexible couplings are only available in steel and should only be used when there is a perfect alignment between the connecting shaft and steering box.
     
  4. I have no idea under what conditions you have seen any U-Joints go "Bye Bye No connection" as you say. I have never seen a broken Yoke or sheered off center cross bone. I have seen the needle bearings go away caused by viberation that should have been taken care of and also by poor joint to joint alignment, also should have been repaired prior to failure. If you ever brake a Yoke or sheer a cross bone you've already destroyed the car a second before that happened. Even Race Only U-Joints that have No needle bearings just get loose, not go Bye Bye. Where does this stuff come from?
    The Wizzard
     

  5. unkledaddy
    Joined: Jul 21, 2006
    Posts: 2,865

    unkledaddy
    Member

    Something else to worry about.............U-joints going bye-bye.

    Add that to ethanol in gas, rubber fuel line and zincless oil.

    I gotta go change the air in my tires.
     
  6. Fenders
    Joined: Sep 8, 2007
    Posts: 3,921

    Fenders
    Member

    A rag joint isn't for change in direction...
    X2 on post 3 ................
     
  7. Gman0046
    Joined: Jul 24, 2005
    Posts: 6,256

    Gman0046
    Member

    My 62 Chevy wagon has a combination U joint and vibration damper. Get it from Borgeson.
     
  8. I've never seen a ujoint fail....I've I've seen ujoints bind, but I've seen rag joints shredded to pieces.....rag joints are for vibration reduction only....the rag joint is never supposed to act like a ujoint...not even for "minute" changes in direction !!!...Install quality steering parts and don't cheap out here or in the braking department either....Remember this....If you can't steer it or stop it...Nothing else really matters !!!...Shiny paint and lots of chrome don't mean shit then.
     
  9. Johnny Gee
    Joined: Dec 3, 2009
    Posts: 12,600

    Johnny Gee
    Member
    from Downey, Ca

    Jeem, to buy a new rag joint lets say from Borgeson (wrong part anyway's as I said before) is not cheap, there a lil over Hundred bucks. So are you telling us you wanna use a used rag joint? Like other's have said, don't mess around with safety.
     
  10. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,903

    need louvers ?
    Member

    Dude, i've rag joints OUT of cars to put U-Joints in... I wouldn't recommend the other way! As some others have stated, rag joints were created to take vibrations and road "harshness" out of steering - and most of the feeling. Kinda like, "I'll have the lobster, but can I have a shot of novocain in my tougue first?"!
     
  11. Chopped 66 Bug
    Joined: Apr 5, 2012
    Posts: 214

    Chopped 66 Bug
    Member

    Due to lack of knowledge I could have bit the farm when my rag joint failed. I needed to replace mine so doing some window (catalog) shopping I found a replacement made of red urethane. (OK no wise cracks please!) So thinking it looked cool, I buy it and put it on my car. No where did it say not for extended use! Well it had been on the car maybe 6 years? I took my car on a 100 mile round trip to a local show at the San Jacinto Monument. Speeds around 70 mph most of the way to and from. Next weekend I am headed out to a cruise get together on Saturday afternoon. As I back out of my drive way something about the steering feels odd then no steering at all! My son came out and helped push the car back into the garage. When I took things apart to see what had happened, that damn urethane had disentigrated! I am back to a stock cloth impregnated rubber type now. They last damn near forever. Thinking about what could have happened at 70 mph had that thing gone then sends chills down my spine. My steering is a straight shot to the box so no need for anything but stock.

    Mike
     
    Pete Peterson likes this.
  12. need louvers ?
    Joined: Nov 20, 2008
    Posts: 12,903

    need louvers ?
    Member

    After you said "red urethane replacement", I assume you were working on a VW! When I wrote above that I have replaced rag joints with u-joints, that is one of the first things I did to every one of my VWs back in those days...
     
  13. Jeem
    Joined: Sep 12, 2002
    Posts: 5,882

    Jeem
    Alliance Vendor

    Yessir, I too live by this. I wasn't implying that I would cheap out, I was thinking a RJ might actually be safer...I was wrong.

    No, Johhny. I'm cheap, but I've never scrimped on brakes or steering.

    EASY! As I said in my original post, a quality u-joint, I will and have spent money on. I've NEVER seen a u-joint fail either. It was a WHAT-IF question.

    The ONE thing I've learned from asking this question is that a rag joint is ONLY for perfectly aligned columns. I thought the factories used them BECAUSE of SLIGHT misalignment and a side benefit of damping.

    Didn't mean to raise anyone's blood pressure! hahaa
     
  14. tommy
    Joined: Mar 3, 2001
    Posts: 14,757

    tommy
    Member Emeritus

    [​IMG]

    I used a rag joint to connect to the Mustang box in the late seventies.You could buy a rag joint rebuild kit in the Help section for peanuts. As others have said it's not a U joint change of direction type of device. The rag joint just provided the spline connection for the steering box. Not the prettiest thing in the world but effective. Aftermarket U joints were not as available back then. The column was home made. I have never been one to just buy kits and street rod parts. I like to do my own.
     
  15. pasadenahotrod
    Joined: Feb 13, 2007
    Posts: 11,775

    pasadenahotrod
    Member
    from Texas

    My friend used a stock Fomoco rag joint in his Track Car to connect the shaft to the Mustang box but it is a straight shot mount. This was in 1969, and is still in and still fine. Easy enough to purchase the "rebuild" kit when the time comes. The shafting does have 2 universals with a pillow block as well.
     
  16. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 6,213

    sunbeam
    Member

    Rag joints don't allow much angle change.
     
  17. As mentioned above, a rag joint shouldn't be used to allow ANY angle change! :confused:
     
  18. The added benefit of using a rag joint is that it doesn't transmit sound from the power steering up the column. If you use a properly engineered unit, like a stock one is, there is minimal danger from failure.
    My preference on most things like this is to emulate the manufactures, unless there is a obvious ongoing problem.
    Put an OEM type rag joint in it. Preferably a genuine OEM.

    ~Alden
     
  19. ugotpk
    Joined: Nov 3, 2008
    Posts: 503

    ugotpk
    Member

    We have test we like to use for final decision with steering. Attach a rod at the base of the steer column. Let the other end ride on the steer box with a marker. Drive the car. See how much flex is in the front of the frame. That way I know if I need a D D slider. This is so the steer box is not banging the column. ?? UGOPK
     
  20. Sorry kids but I am going to have to disagree with this. I just went and looked at my 1975 F150. This truck has never been in an accident, and the steering column and box have never been out of truck, and there is a small, but visible, difference in angle between the box shaft and the steering column shaft and you can see the slightest amount of angle in the rag joint. Like I say, it's never been hit or apart, so it's pretty much as Ford designed it.
    That got my interest, so I looked at my Pinto Wagon, also a dead stock car that has never been hit. It appeared that the shafts were in alignment, but when I spun the steering wheel, there was definitely a slight flex of the rag once again - not like the F150, but still visible. Interestingly the Pinto does have a short shaft from the rag joint to a universal that has a pretty good bit of angle as it goes to the steering column.
     
  21. JEM
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 1,040

    JEM
    Member

    Rag joints are in there for NVH isolation. Most can accommodate a little misalignment and in some cases the flanges that retain the flex element aren't perfectly flat/parallel anyway, but you certainly wouldn't (and no OEM would) use them in place of a U-joint.

    The Germans have some of the nicest rag joints, they're very compact and the isolators are like miniature giubos.
     
  22. JEM
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 1,040

    JEM
    Member

    That's kinda how I tend to think of things:

    a) What would a well-capitalized OE with a large engineering staff do?

    b) Is there any specific reason that's a bad idea?
     
  23. Jeem,
    First I think that you have to take into consideration what either part is for. A rag joiint is not made for going around corners, it is a vibration damper. it is made for soaking up those annoying jolts and bumps that the road sends up though the steering colum. A u-joint on the other hand is for getting your steering shaft around a corner, it is made for a situation when alignment is poor.

    I have seen a lot of factory steering colums that had a u-joint and a rag joint. I think if you are using buoth parts as they were intended a combination of the two is the proper way to do it.
     
  24. A giubo, also known as a flex disc,<SUP> </SUP>is a flexible coupling used to transmit rotational torque between the drive shaft and the companion flange on mechanical devices, such as an automobile engine. The giubo is made from flexible rubber and is designed to allow some angular misalignment while reducing driveline vibration in mechanical power transmission applications.
     
  25. JEM
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 1,040

    JEM
    Member

    '96 Taurus intermediate shaft (left end goes to steering-wheel upper shaft, right end to rack):

    [​IMG]

    U-joint, shear element for collapsibility, big plastic collar (allows the U-joint and shear element to pass through and seal to a big teflon bushing in the firewall rubber boot), nice rag joint, then a U-joint at the rack.

    Pretty typical of modern practice.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2012
  26. cheapracer
    Joined: May 27, 2012
    Posts: 40

    cheapracer
    Member
    from China

    Of course they do.
     
  27. Dan Timberlake
    Joined: Apr 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,530

    Dan Timberlake
    Member

    One u-joint tolerates shafts meeting at an angle, but can not handle "offset".
    2 u-joints separated by a section of shaft can connect shafts with angular and offset.

    Lots of cars steering column is held securely, so need 2 u-joints to connect to the steering rack, etc. The column would have to be allowed to pivot if a single u-joint is used.

    Of course there are exceptions, like the single ujoint in a Chevy torque tube drive, whose single oil bathed u-joint. It runs in bushings without ends so the cross can slide off center as needed since the centering is done by the ball/bell housing.
    http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w71/mr48chev/Truck info/ChevyUjoint001.jpg
     
  28. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    Per what others have said, manufacturers use rag/flex joints to accommodate SLIGHT misalignment, and, to provide isolation.
     
  29. JEM
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 1,040

    JEM
    Member

    Yep. Both static misalignment from design/production tolerances and structural flex and movement during use.

    Hey, my own reply to this thread just reminded myself that it wouldn't be a bad idea to go score a few of those Taurus upper column U-joints to throw in the parts bin next time I'm at the pick-n-pull...
     
  30. This reply reminds me of when my friend ordered a new pickup in 1974. His father convinced him to order manual steering because"you can't feel the road with power steering". He drove it for a very short time and then bought the parts from a wrecking yard to put in power steering, he has not regretted it. It turns out that you really don't want to feel the road that intimately.
    Not at all like the analogy! You might as well gnaw the lobster from it's exoskeleton to savor all of the feeling as well as the taste!:)

    ~Alden
     

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