I have a bit of a technical question for you paint gurus out there. This is a bit involved, but, I'll try to keep it short. We have a paint booth at work. Unfortunately the ventilation system is not operable in its' current condition, so, the painter enlisted my help to create a homemade ventilation system using box fans, and clear plastic. Please note that the fixing of this booth is prevented by the owner of the shop, and beyond my control. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear it will get fixed in my time there. To compound matters, directly next door to our shop is a daycare.... The yard of the daycare lies about 25 feet from the homemade exhaust vents we created on the other side of a 6 foot block fence. I noticed the other day that the painter was painting while the kids were out playing in the yard. Now, I'm not a tree hugging hippy, but, I do believe in doing what I can to not mess with those that have to be around me. I walked over near the fence as close to the daycare play yard I could be, and noticed that the fumes were very strong. So, I commented to the painter that we should get a schedule from the daycare so that we could coordinate times in order to not spray paint while the kids were outside. Seems like the most logical decision to me given the circumstances. Well, he didn't like the idea, and I was schooled on how the fumes "aren't a big deal, especially once outside". While I understand that the fumes will dissipate quickly in an open space with wind, I made the statement that if the fumes were still that strong, there was a reason behind that. He explained to me that the fumes have no relation to the VOCs which I just plain have a hard time believing. In my simple mind, stuff stinks for a reason. So, I've searched to find charts explaining VOC dissipation, and explanations of the smell in relation to the danger. It's hard to find much useful on Google. So, I figured where better to ask. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer in educating me a bit. I may be being a bit too paranoid, but, why not do what I can to prevent kids from being exposed to this crap....
You are smelling atomized paint and solvent. It is bad for you and the kids. Why do you think painters wear respirators when painting, so they don't have to breath the fumes. The painter and the owner of that shop should be locked in a room pumped full of the exhaust fumes from their "spray booth" for about 30 minutes, then they should be kicked in the nuts for this. Ass holes.
You don't have to be a tree hugger to exercise common sense. The EPA and OSHA would certainly want to know about this and poisoning kids is not going to look good. If you do not want to be a whistle blower, have words with the principal of the Day Care center and ask them to file a complaint with the authorities. Some of these paints have some pretty vicious chemicals including Isocyanates - that's Cyanide in English. Thank you for posting and do do your duty as a responsible citizen - if even through a third party. The owner of the business is an ass and does not deserve to make profit while poisoning kids - damage that they may suffer for their entire lives.
I completely understand what it is that I am smelling. I have a little bit of painting experience. His argument, and my questioning was over the dissipation rate of those chemicals given the area we are dealing with. My comment was that if the scent of them was present, then something (obviously the atomized chemicals) was creating it. What do you think about the dissipation over that much distance? Is my reasoning sound that if ANY smell is present then that air contains those atomized chemicals? Short of calling the EPA on my own boss, and getting the correct equipment, how could I better research and express my concerns to him? I want to give everyone the opportunity to do what is right, or at least do our best to be good neighbors. I guess I just don't have the scientific vocabulary on this topic to stand up for my point....
Don't wast your time arguing with an idiot like that. Drop the dime. Or do nothing. Eventually some parent or worker at the Day Care will do the right thing. "Sniff Sniff. OMG! FUMES!" Then the fun starts. The Fire Department will be the first to show up when the panicked caller dials 911 instead of the local EPA office or OSHA. The FD will want to know who the genius was that used flammable plastic sheet and non-rated box fans to build this fire hazard. It sure was not the the boss - or the painter. Maybe you get a tree hugger with an I phone that calls the Washington State Department of Ecology. That will be just as good. I am all for keeping the govt out of our businesses. But one asshole like this one just breeds more laws & little peckerheads to enforce them. You have already tried to talk to them. They are not interested in complying. B.
HEY, I'd run, not walk away from that gig! The state of Washington, much like the state of Kalifornica is pretty liberal, and you may wind up a defendent in a lawsuit over the matter! If any of those kids or a staff member of that school has a reaction to the fumes or overspray, and your boss or the staff of your shop did nothing to control them............yer fucked! This matter probably is a zoning/business issue and may get ugly for the shop owner, fuck him and boogie. If you're smelling fumes, they still contain catylist and other harmfull chemmies. A very large fan, posbably with a catyletic type exhaust ''scrubber'' would be required to renender the fumes harmless. " Life ain't no Disney movie "
Putting aside government regulations, it sounds like a private lawsuit waiting to happen. If it was my kid (in the daycare, or as an employee) he'd be in deep doo doo. There are people who have dropped dead from modern urethane exposure and isocyanates aren't much better. The owner is an idiot. I bet his insurance company wouldn't even cover him for the cost of defense. One, just one person files suit against him and he's in for a lot more expense than fixing the ventilation system.
All spray booths require a paint arester filter before the exhaust fan and a 30' high air stack to dispel the fumes. If a neighbor then complains about the smell, a venturi must be installed on top of the stack to mix more fresh air into the exhaust stream. You are in between the shit and the fan on this one. If you complain harshly to the boss, you will lose your job. If you call OSHA, they will shut down the shop and you will lose your job. If there is an explosion caused by the make shift fan, you could lose your life. Take your choice! On the bright side, if you are fired for complaining to your boss, you can collect unemployment and have a lot of time to build your hot rod. (Then you can call OSHA!) If you want to do something, stop mentioning it around the shop and send an anomalous letter from the parent of a child of the day care stating that if the makeshift vent is not corrected, she will call OSHA and complain about not having an approved exhaust system. This should wake up the owner and save all of your jobs.
Sorry for the confusion guys. I'm spending the winter working down here in Phoenix, and never did change my information. I'm not really certain how much longer this job will be lasting at any rate. I was very hopeful when I started, but, have found that "shortcuts" are the norm at this place. One of the things confusing matters is that this shop is in a "grey area" licensing wise. It is not technically a shop for hire. I know that our insurance/licensing is set up that way. Almost all of the cars we do are property of the owner of the shop. He does most of them for a slow "flip" after driving them a bit, so, cars aren't being painted at a high rate. The place isn't a large commercial shop. There's just two of us employed there, and it is basically treated like the owner's hobby shop, and we occasionally do cars for his "friends". Without the paperwork trail of doing customers car's I wonder how much that will change things. Either way, it looks like I'll be figuring out a way to get this better resolved. I'm somewhat bummed about this as I met the owner of the shop on another automotive forum, and he hired me on. I just hate to see when people can't try to do the right thing, especially when they have the ability. Thanks everyone.
Obviously you have a conscience. If one of those kids was YOUR kid, what would you want done? Don't wait - protect the kids. NOW!
To bodi, It looks like you are not covered by workers comp at this job and the outlook for advancement or a long career there is small. I would start looking for a better job before you get used to taking short cuts and ruin your career. (Think about it, would you use this shop as a refference for a new job?)
To Roger, Thanks for the looking out man. I picked up this job as a winter vacation opportunity to help me pay the bills while I was down here snowbirding, and you are dead on in the fact that I had hoped this was an opportunity to improve my resume. I'll be headed back to Washington State here fairly soon for my regular job, and NO, I won't be using this outfit as a reference come next year to find something. Unfortunate really.
Drop the dime to Phoenix FD Phoenix Fire Department Spray Booth Regulations Read pages 2 & 3, that booth is a serial violation, and the box fans are a bonus. Since you are the guy that rigged the box fans I understand your reluctance to blow the whistle - but the turds that run that show will point the finger at you anyway so go ahead. Or at least name the violator so some phoenix FD hotrodder can trip over this thread... B.
Do the right thing ! All it takes is a little wisp of isocyante to trigger an asthma attack on one of those unsuspecting kids if they are burdened by this illness. As far as being in a gray area of shop liscensing and regulation . He is repairing autos and is compensating employees to do work . He meets the criteria to be liscensed and regulated . Also your boss should have complied with or will soon need to be complying with EPA rule 64. Roger W. is very knowledgeable and well versed in all aspects of the auto repair industry and I would take his advise as gospel.
Well gentlemen, thanks for the support. I quized the painter today as to how long the booth had been like this. You see, the construction of this "ventilation system" consisted of clear plastic stretched over a PVC frame with holes cut in it, and box fans taped in those holes. The thing is, the PVC frame was already constructed, and on site. So were the already paint dusted box fans that we used. I helped stretch new plastic over the frame, and then put it on a pivot in the doorway. So anyways, I decided when I left this morning I was going to give everyone one last chance to do the right thing. So, when the painter started getting ready to paint I stated my concerns again, and asked him what it would take to fix the booth. I guess the booth was sold from where it sat, and was partially disassembled some time ago. There was a falling out of sorts, and the deal crumbled. At that time a good majority of the necessary parts were held ransom for one reason or another. So, the booth remained on site, but, lacks all the necessary sealed switches, and some of the fan equipment. The owner is not interested in spending the money to properly fix it. What sealed the deal for me was when I asked the painter about past problems. His story started changing to the point I was informed that "this was the first time a car had been painted in the booth". The aging, and numerous colors on the purpose built PVC frame, and those fans didn't take a detective to figure out that wasn't the case. I knew from then on that what I'd been told was complete bullshit, and that things weren't going to change after I leave. It was obvious then that I was the only one interested in the welfare of those kids. I'm not going to lie, it really bummed me out realizing that two men of my parents age had no interest in attempting to do what was right. The painter went ahead, and started priming. I walked out to the fence where those kids play, and that pretty much sealed the deal. The fumes were just too damn strong. To whoever said "think of if YOUR kids were on the other side of that fence", thank you. All I really needed to think of was my niece, and nephew over there. I informed the necessary people, and did the preliminary "packing of the tools". That way I won't have much of my stuff to retrieve if this all heads south, as I have a hunch it will. So, I'm betting that the end of my working vacation will turn in to a plain old vacation. I'll keep you updated, and probably post some pictures of this modern marvel, if anyone is interested. I snapped a few today, just in case.
Good on you!!!!! As a parent, grandpa, and great grandpa I salute you for doing the right thing.....if you see a child about to be hurt you don't think about it, you protect, it doesn't matter if it is your child or not. They cannot protect themselves from us. X2 on the nut kicking for the owner and painter.
You absolutely did the right thing. I would venture to say that many on the Hamb fully endorse your course of action....
I could only be prouder of what you did if you were my own son! You may well have saved the health, if not the lives, of lots of children. Never ceases to amaze me what dip-shits are willing to do for money..............................
The issue isn't only the fumes, but the use of the noncompliant box fans which could cause an explosion.
the issue isnt the poor use of equiptment but the fact that spray painting is being done somewhere it shouldnt be. there are plenty of backyard painters and shops that dont use a booth. a booth doesnt filter out any chemicals. the filters take out solids only. the rest goes out the stack. i can smell my painter 150 feet away when theyre clearing. osha protects workers rights, not bystandards, thats where the epa and fd come in. even if its a hobby garage, if theyre painting where they shouldnt be, the place will be shut down. you did the right thing. im surprised the powers that be at the the day care hadnt said anything either. maybe your boss owns the daycare too, or they have their own licensing issues.
Not only the fumes are the problem but even the solid particles of overspray, when you change out the booth filters (in a properly operating booth) they are to be treated as hazardous waste as there are plenty of poisons and heavy metals in paint that are bad and that does not include the harmful chemicals in the fumes, basically these people are pieces of garbage in my opinion and I would get every organization in there to give them a fine and shut them down.
I wanna see how this one turns out. I cant believe that one of the daycare personnel hasn't picked up on the fumes while they are out with the kids......at least they should be out with the kids.....if not we have two negligent issues here.
Well, I figured I'd go ahead and throw these up here so that anyone that stumbles through can have a lesson on my dime. I'd guess it to be about 25' from the home made exhaust to that block wall. Just on the other side of that block wall is the swingset. The fumes get to that wall pretty efficiently. Sorry for the off topic rigs... I'm a Rambler mechanic. Thanks again everyone for the support. Once I saw how it got handled today, my decision was made for me. Unfortunately, I probably protested enough that it will probably be pretty obvious who had a hand in what when the FD comes knocking. Oh well. It's a vacation right?
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