Mustang II front end control arm/spring problem

Using a Souther Rods Mustange II front end, manual steering on a 36 Ford.

Here's my problem: The upper ball joint barely clears the end of the spring/shock tower. And, that clearance is only if the T-bolts are out near the end of the slot. This leaves little room to adjust the caster/camber. Both arms sit at a downward angle, maybe 1" lower than the pivot point. I know the lower arm should belevel at ride height.

If I jack the car up the upper ball joint drops below the spring/shock tower and jambs againt the spring.

I'm guessing I have 2 problems:

1. the spring is too tall or too strong

2. The shock is too long and allows the tire to drop too far down so the
ball joint can hit the spring.

I'm thinking of cutting the spring to get the arms level and getting a shorter shock to hold the whole assembly "up" when the car is jacked up.

Do adjustable upper and lower arms exist for Mustang II ?

 

Sumpin ain't right.

Not familiar with their product but I'd say the kit was installed incorrectly (I have installed a Welder Series Mustang II myself) with no issues. My car uses the original replacement springs and shocks so there was no worry that the shocks were too long etc. I do know of someone (personally) who paid $$ to have a local "big name" install a Mustang II kit in a late 30's Ford coupe ... the car could not be aligned after the install and the springs rubbed/hit the frame. The problem was the "pro" installer did not square up the framerails (the sides of the frame rails were not vertical) before doing the install, so the "spring hats" sat too far in in relation to the main crossmember (end result being the upper control arms were not in the correct position in relation to the lower conrtol arms).

If you are using regular shocks and springs (not coilovers), I would assume you are using standard replacement Mustang II shocks, if that is the case, the shocks being too long should not be an issue. Again, not familiar with the kit you used, but I'm guessing the install was not done correctly. Keep in mind, only going off the info you provided, not really seeing the entire picture so that is what I am basing my opinion on.


The lower control arms are supposed to be parallel to the ground, if that is not the case then yes, I would say the springs you are using are either too stiff (and not compressing enough) or they are indeed too long.

 

whats the angle of the shocks, could be a faulty upper bracket or welded at the wrong place?

 

Pictures? We may need to see this.

 

beat by 3 min

 

When the correct spring is installed, what you should see when the car is on the ground fully loaded is,

The bottom of the "A-Arm's" or "Arm that the strut Rod connects to" will be level with the crossmember, when looking at the front of the auto, from left to right.

A good riule of thumb for the upper "A-Arm" - the top of the mounting surface of the arm to the top of the ball joint mounting surface should create an imaginary 30 degree angle. Measured roughly 1 - 1.5 inches in height difference at the outer end of the upper "A-Arm".

Start by removing the shock's as these do nothing for ride height unless your using coil-overs. Shocks only control the amount of up and down movement the vehicle will go thru when going over bumps and hold the coil spring in if the bump you go over lifts the car off the ground.

 

I wonder if you have wrong kit.I have Heights frontend and have coilovers and shorter a arms.There must be something wrong with spring tower is this a bagger.Did you install it.

 

Looking at a pic from Southern's website, I think maybe the towers were installed too far out. Your springs should have some angle in toward the frame. If they are pretty straight up and down, that would mean the top bucket is out further than it should be. With your camber correct (0deg), where are the top mounting bolts in the slots? They should be about center.

 

Sure doesn't sound right and i agree it seems like the spring towers are mounted too far out. Having said that i can't see that the upper ball joint should get overly close to the spring at normal ride height and travel.

I suggest you take the springs and shocks out and block it up at ride height / a arm angles. You can then set the caster / camber. If the balljoint clears the tower you're good (assuming they need to pass the tower in normal operation - i can't recall whether they do or not). All that is required then is appropriate length and rate springs and suitable length shocks.

My ride height was all wrong and the springs settled after i'd cut them . I also hated installing the springs - fear of injury! The conical springs with a coilover type bottom end work great and are a joy to fit. Bottom a arm does require suitable mounts though.

Chris

 

Without pictures it is hard to be exact, but it seems that your top spring hats are too far to the outside of the frame. You may need to cut and reweld the hats to be in closer to the middle of the car. Pictures would help to diagnose exactly what is wrong. You should not have upper A-arm interference with anything full travel.

 

whats the trac width? normal trac width for a MII is 56" on your car its 2" wider that what you realy need sounds to me like the top hats dont match the x member width?if its a 56" traqc width the top hats should be about 36 " at the shock hole?

 

Here, read THIS

This sounds like a case of the manufacturer either sending a mix-match of parts or they really don't know what they are doing.

If things are set up properly, the coil springs should be within a 1/4' of the outside of the frame rail. If there is more gap than that, the spring pocket is misplaced and may be the source of your trouble.

Your upper control arm arrangement should look like this if done properly

 

First, check if you got the right a-arms/parts. If so . . .

Take the springs out, put some good matching tires on, level it out to ride height, elongate the "T-bolt" holes and/or cut & weld & straighten things out.

Also, Rumor has it, the springs "settle down" about an inch or so, with all the weight on.

 

I would NOT "elongate the holes". Doing so might solve a problem but would not eliminate the cause ... the real problem would still be there.

Pics would definitely help. Sounds like either the install was not done correctly or the parts supplied are not correct for your vehicle.

Find the cause, DO NOT crutch it with a diegrinder and hole elongation.

 

I think Matconcepts has it.
They maybe shorter a arms,and longer would gain 5/8 inch.

 

With Alex and ElPolako posting one behind the other you have two guys who who have seen or done as many MII installs as anyone around and ElPolako has probably straightened out more of other people's messes than all the rest of us combined.

If you can, post some photos so that they and the rest of us can see what you are facing and someone should be able to come up with a solution.

I checked the Southern Rods website and found the instructions and compared to others I have seen including the ones from Welders Series and the ones with the one size fits all Helix crossmember they are pretty vague at best http://www.southernrods.com/instructions.html Scroll down to 35/40 Ford MII. I can see how a guy might get off trying to follow that set of instructions.
Both sets of instructions I have downloaded are very exact in where the top spring pockets sit both fore and aft on the frame and the exact width to the centers of the shock stud hole in top.

We still need to see those photos.

 

I bought a bolt-in Mustang 2 crossmember from Chassis Engineering. I used stock Mustang/Pinto springs and even after cutting 1/2 coil I experienced the same problem. The control arm hit the spring hat. Chassis Engineering told me I need to use thier springs. I ordered and installed thier sprngs and everything is looking good now with the lower arms level as they shoud be. May want to ask Southern Rods about the problem.

 

I think you may have narrowed upper and lower a arms.If someone could measure a stock one and measure yours and see if that what the problem is.And the springs you may want to cut one coil off to lower it.

 

You might be right, I built a 31 coupe with a mustangII front. While building I noticed that my trac width was to wide (tires would end up sticking out of the fenders) so I reordered a narrower control arm set (about 1-1/2" narrower) and that solved my problem. You may have a mismatched set of control arms.

 

I'm not very good at computer stuff so I've tried attaching pictures - hope it works.

With the T-bolts all the way out to the end of the slot I have about 1/4" of clearance between the upper ball joint and the shock tower. This give me about 1 degree of positive camber.

The lower control arm is down about 1 1/4" and the upper arm is slightly below the top of the tower. All this at ride hieght i.e., with the car on its tires.

I'm still guessing that the car is too light to compress the springs. There's a 302 Ford motor in this 36 Ford. All steel body. I have not weighed the car to see it's total weight.

If I cut 1 coil off the springs, I think the lower control arm would be "level".
This would raise the upper arm close to level with the top of the shock tower.

Was there ever a "stop" in this suspension to keep the whole thing up when the car is on a lift? Unless I shorten the shock length then the upper arm drops below the tower andthe balljoint hits the spring. Was theshock the only thing that supposed tohold the suspension up?

 

I have a 35 frame with heights ifs with narrower a arms and coil overs.But on this MII setup its not the same on southern there site they don,t even give you a choice of what kind you want.The shock tower looks good to me but there is only one way and measue the a arm.Speedway doen,t say use smaller ones.I think most all come from same maker.The stock ones will be find just use 6" wheels.If to hieht cut off one coil, worked on my 56 ford pu.

 

I installed a Southern Rods Mustang II kit on a '39 a few years ago. I remember that the shocks supplied were not the correct length. Had to buy different ones to get the front end to "settle down". The ball joint was really close to the spring cup when done.

 

Where the upper mounts are welded on have nothing to do with your problem. Since the upPer a arm attaches to it, moving it in, out or anywhere won't change the relation of the arm to the upper mount or spring. I would remove the spring, mock it up at ride height and see if it aligns or what it looks like the. It may be an incorrect upper arm, as said before, or the spring is too tall as also mentioned. Too late now, but I always tack weld, and then install everything and check alignment before finish welding. good luck.

 

For a stock MII spindle, we use 9-9 1/2" vertical distance from the height of the lower control arm mount to the upper shaft centerline. From the pictures, it appears yours may be taller than that. I don't believe this is the root of your problem, but has me thinking more seriously that the upper portion of the suspension may have been installed incorrectly...

 

Seeing no one wants to measure a arm the stock one.
The best I can do is measure from ball joint to ball joint the LOWER ONE.thats 46 3/4 and I think your kit uses the stock arm upper and lower.Mine is the narrowed arms.
SO If this is true your center to center of ball jopint should read
46 3/4 plus 5/8x2= 48 inches.

 

found a pic of mine

 

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There is one thing right there. Making that the horizontal line that runs between the upper control arm mounts is the correct distance from the center line of the lower control arms. If that is right and the center of the shock stud hole on each upper mount are the correct distance apart I'd be setting it on it's wheels and putting weight that equaled the weight of the the rest of the pieces on it to see where you are at.

There is a hell of a lot to be said for the Tack-check- finish welding theory of rod building too. That saves a lot of headaches down the build path.

This attachment is longer than hell and actually is what you get when you get a Helix universal crossmember from Welder Joe's on Ebay. Don't beat me the price was right and I know I need to do some extra welding on it.

The thing is that because it is universal it gives universal measurements and those can be used to check the measurements on other installations that "should" have the same basic MII measurements.

A guy can also use the Welder's series instructions for their fold it and weld it crossmember to get the measurements that should pretty well be universal in MII installs. http://www.welderseries.com/instructions/mIIcrossmembers/MIIcrosskitsinstall.htm

 

Here are the updated MII instructions: http://www.welderseries.com/instructions/mIIcrossmembers/WS14340N.pdf

I'd echo all those who suggest checking clearance with the springs removed, and the lower control arm level with the ground. Until you do this, there are too many variables. Could you also give a dimension from the upper control arm pivot point centerline to the ball joint centerline please?

 

You still have a lot more parts to put back.Those springs are a pain to install,I would cut one full coil with hacksaw.When it getting lower the t bolts will move in closer to frame.If anything hits cut it out of way.But I think you will be ok.The shocks will not be a problem.

 

More pictures: shows the ball joint hitting the spring even while the car is on it's wheels. car is not heavy enough to compress the springs. these are "stock" Mustang II springs.

I then moved the t-bolts out to the extreme edge and the ball joint will clear the spring tower but still drops down and hits the spring if the car is raised off its wheels.

I'm going to cut off one coil which shold "level" the lower control arm.
Also fabricating a bracket to go from the crossmember down to hook the lower control arm and keep it from going too far down.