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Vintage Ford Stock Cars. Hows and Whys??

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Enbloc, Dec 20, 2011.

  1. Does anybody have any specs, info, build notes etc. on how the mid-thirties Fords were set-up for stock car racing in period?

    What were the hot set-ups for wheels, brakes, axles, shocks etc?

    I see wide wheels with stock Ford centres. Some seem to running big truck rear ends. Were these justs hubs and brakes or the whole axle? Were they mainly stock suspension set-ups?

    Any info and/or pictures appreciated.

    Thanks


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    Pics from ClayMart.
     
  2. It literally would vary with the builder, the track, and the era the car ran. Just as an example, I have a '39 Chevy coupe that ran in the late 50s with more or less stock front I-beam and an open rearend, an early Chevy V8 and 3-speed, and they put two shocks on all 4 corners. It also got a steering column/box I haven't identified yet, but I presume it's a faster ratio than the stock steering. My buddy has a '37 Chevy that I'm not as sure of the history on, but it's an old car that was running the vintage circuit much more recently - it's converted to Ford-type transverse leaf with split bones that are heated and curved in the middle to clear other stuff on the frame. No rearend under it right now. Pretty crazy. But it's an extreme example, most of the stock framed cars retained a suspension similar to, if not the same as, original.

    My '39 has a water pipe cage in it and at least one of the doors still opens. My buddy has the '37 Ford the same guys built back in the day and the cage in it is 1-inch water pipe of some sort, it's tiny. The rest of the car is a little newer, rear window cut out, fenders cut back more, doors welded up, etc.

    And he also has a '68 Dodge Dart that I only mention because the rearend it ran on a 3/8ths (mile) or so dirt oval, is an early 50's Ford truck rearend probably picked for a low-5's or high 4's gear ratio - the rest of it is all Mopar. As cars got more powerful, that was when you saw more of the truck rearends, even to the point of full floating axle one-ton rearends in them.

    I've seen thick steel plates to adapt wide-5 to a regular 5-lug pattern, Buick aluminum drums modified with a cast piece to carry wide-5 rims, and outright racing drums as they evolved.

    Usually a car on dirt would have a skinny tire on the left front and wide ones on the other three corners.
     
  3. hugh m
    Joined: Jul 18, 2007
    Posts: 2,143

    hugh m
    Member
    from ct.

    There were a ton of different ways guys did stuff, depending on the period, track, skills, etc. here's some shots of one we restored a few years ago....shows how it was cobbled together.(knocked the cage apart with a big sledge hammer) Have to keep in mind that they all weren't this crude, and we actually over restored it to make it work for us, but it's a pretty good example.
     

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  4. Thanks some good info.

    I'm more interested in the era when the cars where modified stock cars (Early fifties?) rather than all out race cars that came later with their super wide wheels and sectioned bodies.

    Hugh m, love to see some pictures if you have them. Especially close ups of the frontend.
     

  5. hugh m
    Joined: Jul 18, 2007
    Posts: 2,143

    hugh m
    Member
    from ct.

    Sorry, don't have any closeups, but check out the shocks on Johnny Bryson's 80, and the spring stack on the Hudson...both old track photosfrom other folks.
     

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  6. Moneymaker
    Joined: Sep 19, 2011
    Posts: 320

    Moneymaker
    Member

    Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but didn't they used to call them "Jalopy's"?
     
  7. drumyn29
    Joined: Feb 16, 2006
    Posts: 2,194

    drumyn29
    Member

    I don't know the specs but I sure would love to own one.
     
  8. Yes i believe they called them jalopies....there was one for sale on the LA calif craigslist a 1940 ford coupe for 1100.!!
     
  9. back in the day we would find a 3/4 ton truck rear and cut the end off the housing and adapt it to a stock i beam front axel using just the hub and spindle .then add better brakes .the rear we would use the 3/4 ton rear as is .we made our own wheels . later on we just used the end's off the rear and used aftermarket hubs and wide five wheels the earlyest hubs are hard to find now .I saw some at the auto fair a few years back for $100.00 each. .I loved racing back then it was a guys inginuity that could make or brake you .
     
  10. ...I think it depended upon what part of the country they were in. Seems the term Jalopy was used more often on the West Coast. In some areas a guy might take offense at having his race car called a Jalopy, feeling it was derogatory. In other places it would be considered a "badge of honor".
     
  11. You removed the 3/4 ton rear axle end housings and used them as front spindles? Is that right?
     
  12. Yes thats right we cut them off right at the flange where the backing plates bolted on. we sliped them over the stock i beam spindle and bolted the truck housing spindle to the backing plate atatchment holes in the i beam spindle.the truck housing ends were floater rears and hade realy big bearings .If you look at any modern wide five setup for late models you will see that same spindle .still used today
     
  13. I see, so simple.

    What was used for brakes on this set-up, you mention "better brakes" in your previous post? Anybody use the truck rear drum brakes on the front?
     
  14. we also welded the spider gear so the rear was locked .we would use a tire on the left rear that was about 2 inchs smaller in diameter than the right rear .Put as big a right front tire as we could find and a small left front . most of the time we did nothing to the left front wheel at all as most of the time it was not on the ground off the turns anyway. we would heat and bend the front axel near the right front to add camber to the right front. added extra springs to the right front by cutting them in 1/2 just past the centering bolt hole .just enough to stifen the right front .same to right rear ,added a couple extra leaf springs re adjusted the wedge in the car with a long shackle on the left rear with lots of holes for adjustments we would put s socket from the tool box in the center of our jack and place it onder the center of the rear housing and jack it up until the left rear just cleared the ground and then adjust the shackel so the right rear was about 2 inchs off the ground .Depending on the track size and or banking .this was the pore boys way back when you run what you brung
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
  15. the truck rear brakes were the better brakes replacing the car brakes that were on the stock i beam
     
  16. How did you go from the truck wheel pattern to the passenger car wide-5 pattern?

    Thanks for your replys, John. They have been a big help in pieceing all this together.
     
  17. olskool34
    Joined: Jun 28, 2006
    Posts: 2,597

    olskool34
    Member

    In the collectors edition of Hot Rod Deluxe there is a new two page bit about them with some awesome pictures, blasting around the sand and a very cool shot of the lineup. Mostly 38-9 Ford coupes.
     
  18. john mullen, Really enjoy the insight into the "engineering" that went into these cars. I'll always remember the first time, at around age 7, that I stood on tip-toes and peered into a late 30's Ford dirt car. As a little kid I was shocked to look down and see the ground under the seat bolted to the frame! .....Don
     
  19. SUHRsc
    Joined: Sep 27, 2005
    Posts: 5,093

    SUHRsc
    Member

    Clark,
    These cars are both fairly accurate later 50's.... The #17 may be newer yet...
    both were "restored" in the early to mid 80's

    Both have 15" rims with wide 5 centers welded in ( I made the left rear on the #78)
    The #17 has floater axle housing ends welded to banjo axle tubes and uses the drop in axles with the floater type hubs... the right front is the same as mentioned... the end of a floater axle bolted over the stock spindle.

    This car - #17 ran at a bigger track that allowed newer motors...
    #78 ran at a flathead only track, only single carbs, etc... it has all ford wide 5 drums on standard axles and spindles... but all 4 15" rims welded onto wide 5 centers.
    The rearend is interesting as they bent the spring perches to move to rear to the left... inturn making it crooked... so the car goes around left turns better... you can see how far forward the rear wheel is... this is a mix of the newer rear with a straight spring, and the fact that its crooked... I thought this was from a crash but then I came across another rear similar and the photos of the car show the wheel in this forward position, in the 50's...
    both cars have locked center sections... I assume welded spider gears...
    The steering is out of I believe a chevy truck... on an angle with the seat angles to match...
    You can learn a lot from the old photos you may find... As mentioned its a matter of what time period and what exact area or track your trying to emulate.
    I have a ton of photos from the track where this #78 ran... it was the 57 and 58 track champion and also the all time most feature wins in a single season.

    #17 now lives in Switzerland... you probably have seen it at some shows over your way
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    Last edited: Dec 21, 2011

  20. Just the opposite! My Dad races Jalopy's in Massachusetts, and Southern New Hampshire in the late 40's and early 50's. They where always called Jalopy's. I came from a racing family that started racing motorcycles in 1929. They later raced for the Indian Motorcycle factory from 1936 till 1953 when Indian went out of buisness. Parallel to the motorcycle racing they got into the car racing called Jalopy's after the War. My mothers brother the late great Ollie Silva started racing Jalopy's in 1949, and raced until 1980. Or family raced from 1929 to 1988. I was the last to slide into the drivers seat. My children never had any interest in racing, but my grandson is planing on racing Go Karts in 2012. Possibly a new generation will start this racing adventure all over again.
    Check out the story about the late great Ollie Silva below, It's a good read.

    http://www.google.com/imgres?q=olli...&w=668&h=449&ei=OenxToyDJoqFsAKa2LinAQ&zoom=1



     
  21. drumyn29
    Joined: Feb 16, 2006
    Posts: 2,194

    drumyn29
    Member

    bummer I wish I would have seen that. I checked yesterday but it's long gone.
     
  22. Thanks for pics and info, Zach.

    Do you remember if the front end track of the #17 car was wider with the truck hubs than a conventional passenger car front end and hubs?
     
  23. Hot Rod Elvis
    Joined: Jan 24, 2011
    Posts: 606

    Hot Rod Elvis
    Member

    Down here around Ga, back what I call the "Golden Age of Stock Car Racing" 1938-mid 50's. It was a very common trick to use truck hubs for better grip. You take a stock 39 Ford (one of the most common and popular race cars) and the axles and hubs wouldn't be very strong on dirt and sand ruts. But you beef them up and you could slide all the way around. The museum I work at (Georgia Racing Hall of Fame) we have a car in there that won three modified races at Daytona Beach in 49', 50', and 51'. It was driven and restored by Gober Sosebee, he restored it back in the 80's. He was an innovator. He has so many unique modifications that back pre and post war, people thought was crazy. He was noted as the first to put a roll bar in his car. Other drivers laughed at him saying that you didn't need one if you were a good driver. The roll bar is a truck leaf spring (just two leafs) that fit to the contour of the 39's roof. He also has the truck hubs and axles. He put a truck radiator in the car for better cooling on the beach (also has zephyr gears) But since the radiator of a 42-47 Ford truck is bigger than intended on a 39 Ford, he had to heat up the edge of the hood and pull it out a little. So the hood has bulges so it can fit down snugly over the larger radiator. He called the bulges on his car, the car's 'eyebrows'.

    I will either find some pics I already have, or when I get over this sickness, I'll go up there and take some of the car. There's lots of stories to the actual Daytona beach winning car, but that's for another time.

    -Cody
     
  24. SUHRsc
    Joined: Sep 27, 2005
    Posts: 5,093

    SUHRsc
    Member

    The truck hub doesnt move things out a lot, its only about 3/8" thick flange... but the offset wheels do...

    in the end... your way out past the point where the king pin would go to the ground....the truck hub I believe is basically to beef things up to where you don't brake the stub off the spindle due to stress of the offset rim...

    thats why I had to make the left rear on the other car... with the rearend crooked... the normall offset 15" rims made it so the left rear tire was sticking out way past the knerf bar.... I made one that was more centered...

    if you take an early 15" rim... cut the rivets out... then take a wide 5 rim and do the same... the wide 5 drops into the 15" rim... then you just weld where it touches...
    when i did the half offset I had to cut the wide 5 center down in the lathe, eliminating the "spokes" to get it in to the center of the rim where it was smaller...





     
  25. There a lot of good picture sites like Pops, Vintage Modifieds, etc. Search around and you'll find some reference material.

    For seats, they often used WWII bomber seats and belts, or just a leather lap belt. Rears came from trucks, full floaters and all, heavy as hell too.

    Cages were mostly black pipe with just the main hoop, some kickers out back.

    I'd say into the early 1960's you started to see right front safety hubs which kept the wheel and hub on the car a lot better.

    Most of them were made with little more than a stick welder, a body grinder and a cutting torch, technology was pure junkyard, big engines, parts pirated from trucks, etc.

    Bob
     
  26. Was there any difference in the actual stub axle length between the truck floater and the passenger stub?
     
  27. Look forward to seeing the pictures.
     
  28. This is the exact thing that interests me. What was being done and used at a time when there was no aftermarket parts.
     
  29. Enbloc, About the wheel patern truck to wide five .We used 7/16 flat plate drilled to the truck bolt patern cut out the center to fit the hub and then drill out for the wide five patern and install studs from auto suppy sorse. All done on a lathe, end mill and degree table. Wheels as preveusly posted.... I have seen them done with a machinest dividers, hand drill, and torch . Back then there was a lot of crude fabracation going on. no telling what you would see
     

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