My buddy was telling me that a 351c and a 302 have the same motor mounts and that the trannys will bolt right up to eachother. Is this true? I always thought that it was the 351w and the 302, and that the 351c was different. The reason I ask is that I found a cheep runing 302 and was thinking of swapping out my 351c in my truck. Will the 302 just bolt right in or what. Thanks almighty HAMB.
I don't think so. The Cleveland motors are totally different blocks than the SBF. You might be able to get away with using different mounts on the old brackets, I still have doubts. 351C, 351M and 400 all exchange.
The 351C is a tall deck small block. Some stuff interchanges and some stuff don't I don't think that the motor mounts are the same but you should be able to scroungs the junkyard for the right stuff to mount it up. If your ride came with a 351C then it most likely came with then low deck small block that same year.
[ QUOTE ] I don't think so. The Cleveland motors are totally different blocks than the SBF. You might be able to get away with using different mounts on the old brackets, I still have doubts. 351C, 351M and 400 all exchange. [/ QUOTE ] The tranny bolt pattern on the 351C is a "small block" pattern shared with the 302/351W and the pattern on the 351/400M is a "big block" pattern shared with the 429/460. The Ms also have a wider lifter valley.
Not positive, but I think the trucks with these type of motors got 351/400M motors. These are sort of like Cleveland motors, but not exactly. During the time the Cleveland motor was in production, trucks got FE motors.
Your buddy is 100% correct - it is true. 351C has exact same mounts, mounting locations, & bellhousing bolt patterns & is fully interchangeable with 302. Obviously, headers are drastically different from 351C & 302. However, NO - I repeat NO - truck came stock with a 351C. If you have a 351C in your truck, it was transplanted in at some other time. Trucks have 351M which are similar to 351C, but not interchangeable. Well, similar is deceiving, the only similarities are the heads. Everything else is different - mounts, bellhousing, etc. So if you really have a 351M, it isn't a straight swap for a 302. To ID 351C vs 351M - easiest is heads. (Well, easiest is the smog sticker on the stock valve covers if it's still intact.) The forward top/inner corner of the head that is not covered by the valve covers will have a "2" or a "4" cast into it if it is 351C heads. 351M heads won't have this. The next quick visual is the top two bolts of the bellhousing that are usually visible from the engine compartment - if they're about 5" apart, it's a 351C. If they're more like 7" apart, it's a 351M (or 400M). 351M/400M are also physically larger than 351C, but it's hard to compare them w/o one side-by-side. Good Luck!
Flat Ernie is right...351C, Boss 302, Boss 351, and Windsor based small blocks use the same transmission bellhousing bolt patters, and the same motor mounts, making swaps easy (as far as bolting in the engines go...clearance may be an issue in some cases!). 351M and 400M engines use the 429-460 bellhousing pattern and motor mounts...so a 460 will bolt right up to the existing trans man motor mounts where a 351M or 400M were, and vice-versa. (Only the earliest 260 and 289 engines had an odd bellhosing bolt pattern unlike the rest of the Windsor and Cleveland engines...they used a five bolt bellhousing, but all other 289,302,255 and 351W and 351C engines can share common transmissions and motor mounts). It sounds a little confusing till you get used to it...I've been playing with Fords since high school, and now live in Dearborn...you can stop an old lady walking down the street in this town and she'll probably be able to tell you the differences between a Windsor, Cleveland and Modified 351 engine!!
Cool thanks for all the help on this. I have a 55 ford panel, it origianly came with a y block but I put the 351c in. The motor is really tired and I was hopeing for a quick swap with the least amout of work involved so I can rebuild the 351c and eventually put it back in. And the cost of a rebuild is outa the question right now. I don't think I could stand to have it down for too long. It was down for a week last month and I was going crazy. Well thanks again for the help. VIVA LA HAMB!!!!
[ QUOTE ] I have a 55 ford panel, it origianly came with a y block but I put the 351c in. [/ QUOTE ] The 302 will drop right in, but your headers & exhaust will be your biggest challenge. Good Luck
yeah the headers will be a problem hehe i had a big problem on my 50 with the 351w i couldn't run any headers that were stock i'd have to customize some to fit
its not true that the 351c exchanges alot of parts with the 351m and 400. i know this for a fact. because i was told the same thing. i went to swap my new 351c with my 351m and alot of the brackets were different. and the motor mounts were alot different the bolts on the 351c went in vertically -- and the 351 m mounts go in horizontally. l hope it helps
I have a 150 lightning with a 351. I replaced the original 351 with a rebuild that developed the same problem in just a few months. I want to change it for a more reliable engine like the 302. I see that it will bolt up to the transmission but I may need to modify the mounts. Will the electronics work with the 302 or would I be better off to carberate?
The 1970 - 72 351 Clevelands have the same motor mount pads and bell housing bolt pattern as the SBF. In 73 they changed the motoer mounts to there own and the ball areas was changed to the 429-460 bell housing bolt pattern. I bolted a lot of early Clevelands in mustangs were either the 302 or 351W was in. The exhaust headers are a completely difference animal. Even the 2V anmd 4v had different size exhaust ports and the 2v headers would not fit the 4v or the other way around. The first two picture are of the early cleveland and the third is a later clevelands mounts
YES. - Your first post was done without any introduction to the HAMB, it was an Off Topic Vehicle taht is not appropriate here (READ THIS http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44274 before posting anything else) not to mention the 351 in a Lightning is a Windsor motor, not a Cleveland or "M" motor and a 302 is in no way more reliable than what you have, Oh Yeah, and this was a 6 year old thread that he didn't "ADD" any value to as well.
Nope! As was said earlier all Cs have the SBF bell pattern. Almost all of the 351M/400s have the 429/460 pattern, some 400s made in '73 had the SBF pattern.
Sorry I was off one year it was 73. And yes they were 351 M after 73 but a lot of people still call them Clevelands.
I've always considered myself a Ford fan but, they just seem to have gone out of their way to make things more complicated? I guess I'm spoiled by so many interchangable parts between Knuckleheads, Panheads, and Shovelheads.
The hard core ford guys did not care what year the car was. They would go by the casting numbers and the last year for the SBF bell was the D2 casting . If its a D4 casting it has the BBf bell and a .030 higher deck. You can find D4 with the same cleveland deck because back when this motor was being raced they were hard to get and a lot of guys were taking the D4 blocks and milling the deck. An the D4 was still called the cleveland. The D5 block was the M block. It made it difficult for buying intakes for these motors.
Another origin of the M designation may have come from where the engine blocks were cast. It follows the naming convention set forth by the 351C (Cleveland) cast at the Cleveland Foundry and 351W (Windsor) where the majority of the blocks were cast at the Windsor Casting Plant. From the introduction in the model year 1975, the 351M engine blocks (which are the same as the 400 engine block) were all produced at the Michigan Casting Center (MCC) in Flat Rock, MI or at the Cleveland Foundry (CF) also known as the Cleveland Casting Plant (CCP). To help distinguish it from the other two different 351s, the logical choice was to use the Michigan Casting Center, hence the M designation for 351 Michigan. The 351 Cleveland had a well known, good reputation in the public. For a few of years after the introduction of the 351M, Ford marketing called the engine the "351 Cleveland". This led to confusion as to what 351 version was actually in the vehicle. Later, car enthusiasts incorrectly referred to this engine as a "351 Midland" presumably a reference to Midland, Michigan, a city just northwest of Saginaw or reference to an iron foundry in Midland, Texas. But the Ford Motor Company never owned a Midland factory.
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