Features VINTAGE SPRINT CAR PIC THREAD, 1965 and older only please.

Thanks Doug. Ya, buy the way this morning the grass was white. Denny Z

 

Seems like he was close to Stanton in those days, probably was a Stanton. But I only remember hin in the Aristocrat cars when in USAC.

 

Happy birthday Denny Z!

 

racer5c, Roy if I am correct it was the shop just past where DRC used to be. In the building just to the west of where Devin's shop was till a few months ago, the first or second suite. I stopped to check it out and he asked me to help him unload it. this was in 09, he had some really cool stuff in there including a GT40! an old original one.

Bob

 

Yeah he is still around, saw him at the IMIS show a couple of weeks ago.

Bob

 

Denny Z,

Happy Birthday, one day late!

 

Need a little help and advise. I admire the builders on this site and their knowledge regarding open wheel racing. I am seeking a little Professional advice regarding a sprint car I am interested in purchasing and restoring. The car has both track and driver history that I have researched from the time it was built until today. It raced USAC from 1958 to 1966 on all the tracks in the midwest (Hills). It was also driven by at least two well known drivers during this time period and two known owners during this period. I am interested in restoring this car as it raced next to most of the great sprint car drivers of all time. If someone would give me a little time and pm me I would greatly appreciate your help and advise with this car.
Bob

 

Josh,
Before rollcages there were very few slidejobs [if any] where the guy being passed had to lift to let the guy pass him. The secound time it happened the guy being passed did not lift and there was a wreck, remember no cages. Bad results. There has always been a saying BRAVER THAN DICK TRACY about a few drivers in the old days. After roll cages most were braver than DICK TRACY. There were a lot of drivers that were against roll cages just for that reason and they also said if they put cages on midgets and sprints anybody could drive one of them. Look in the book Dusty Heroes and see what Bobby Grim had to say. I know of a few others that felt the same way. I can not think of what would have happened to someone who put a slide job on Bob McLean [one of the nicest drivers around] after what I saw when he just got bumped [and did not spin in a heat race]. Older drivers had a lot of respect for the other drivers on the track, but you had to earn it. Sorry this was so long, just do not like slide jobs.
Jim

 

Mr. sideways, It would be considerably easier to offer you advice and information if you could, maybe, mention the names of the drivers and owners you refer to above....... maybe, the car name? car number? color?
mac miller in INDY

 

I don't like them either. I was pointing out that they were kind of a new thing.. and thre was still no well known "Term" for them.

...Although, I did pull a few Slide Jobs of my own in my racng days. One REALLY NASTY one on Roy's buddy Kerry Norris to win a HEAT RACE!! My life long friend since childhood Carl "Kaos" Kruse was the announcer at the time and he even blasted my move over the P.A. but it made the car owners day.. So, in a way I was jus doing my job. Ha ha.

 

ahh that would be Gordon Barrett

 

I stopped in at Charlie Browns in Speedway today and sat and talked to Chuck Kidwell. Anyone got any pics of him? He is from the Kansas/Nebraska area and ran Sprints in the 60's and 70's. Thanks!

Bob

 

I've heard the same argument on the cages. One driver told me when you put a roof over a guy's head he thought he was King Kong.

I also remember the saying in those days, "There are old race drivers, and there are bold race drivers. There are very few old, bold race drivers."

One night in the 80s at IRP, somebody did one of those "almost" slide jobs on Page Jones in a midget, and there was a crash. When they pulled the car in, I told him I saw somebody try that on Page's daddy back in the early 60s in the same turn. He asked what happened, and I said, "It didn't work then, either."

Of course, in that case, IIRC, a cooler head prevailed and the sliding driver backed out first.

 

link to my photobucket album
http://s1011.photobucket.com/albums/af233/carl44s/motorsports/?action=view&current=Chuck_Kidwell.jpg

Chuck Kidwell KS State Fair 9-17-68



2009 Inductee Nebraska Motorsports Hall of Fame

 

The conversation about cages on race cars reminds me of a guy that lived in my neighborhood when I was a kid. Jim Devitt was a local midget racer from Calimesa, CA where I grew up. He had a Kurtis copy spring front torsion rear V8-60 for years. Eventually he had another full torsion car that he ran on pavement, and they both got Offys eventually. He argued against cages for years, for all the known reasons. He told me the first time out with a cage he climbed a right rear and ended up with his face looking at the outside wall at the old Irwindale 1/2 (Speedway 605). He said without the cage he would have been decapitated. He became an ardent supporter of cages after that. I don't like the way they look either (especially the 3-window coupe look of today) but it has let some guys retire at their own wish rather than the events that too many of us have witnessed.

 

Roll cages are the reason i am still here,but they are ugly.
Add a wing and they are fugly.

 

Just my .02 but wings belong on mid fifties american production cars, aircraft, and old Seeburg juke boxes. Not race cars.

 

I came into the sport after midgets got roll cages. By my count the little cars have now had cages more seasons than not [40 vs. 32 based upon a 1934 start and 1970 mandatory cages with 4 years subtracted for the War] and more shocking yet: those cages have had the dreaded downtubes for 21 years [1989 first widespread use] vs. 19 without them.
The cageless cars still look better to my eyes but after just finishing Brock Yates' book on the 1955 racing season I doubt we would still have a sport without the "monkey bars."
Chuck Schultz
Winfield, Illinois

 

It's been my experience that wings make a race car easier to drive on both dirt and asphalt, and they also help to cushion a crash (unless the wing gets torn off right away). From a spectator's point of view a wingless race is generally more exciting to watch. Generally the fast guys are going to be up front with or without wings.

 

I like my sprint cars like my Women. TOPLESS.

 

Inverted airfoils provide downforce by creating a low pressure area beneath them. Or, in simpler terms....WINGS SUCK!

 

Well HELLO Bob Cicconi, how GOOD to see you here.
I'm honored to say WELCOME to you.

Just the other day I enjoyed seeing you in action again, at Eldora in 1981 (in your family's #59) in the video someone posted (two parts) in postings 12488 & 89 above.

Somewhere else recently (and I don't remember where) I also saw you in past action in the winter indoor TQ races, at the Atlantic City (NJ) Convention Hall.

Also, I often think of the GRRRREAT and clean on track battles between you and Lenny Boyd, in past ARDC sanctioned races here in the east.

I've been in touch with Lenny, a few times in the last year.

You'll also find some of the former competitors and other folks that you know on here (and on the Vintage Wingless Midget thread on here) .... more too on Facebook as well. Nokie & Drew Fornoro are only two of those that you know that are on Facebook.

I just heard about an upcoming "Roast" (run by the TQ club .. the ATQMRA) that's to both ROAST Mike Osite and also honor the (Long Island, NY) "Bad Guys" that were out of the late Pete Petraitis's shop .. Pete's Auto Parts, in Huntington Station, Long Island, NY. It's going to be held in March (I think), at Lenny Boyd's Ocean Aire facility in NJ. Gary Mondshein (Mel's son) is heading it up. If you're interested, I'll put you in touch with him. LOTS of people you know will be there!!!

Anyhoo ... back to where we were. I'll quote Bob .... "From a spectator's point of view a wingless race is generally more exciting to watch." .... Races are put on to entertain and excite the fans. Why??? Because without the fans there would be no racing, because there would be no money to support the tracks you race on, no purses, there would be no reason so anyone (corporate or otherwise) to sponsor race cars, speeways, drivers, point funds and I could go on & on & on.

Quoting Bob again .... "they also help to cushion a crash" .... I'll agree with that, BUT they also make the car quite a bit faster .... faster when you HIT the (in most cases) unforgiving concrete wall MUCH HARDER, as one former racer (that Bob knows), recently pointed out. Even with today's safety items, the harder you hit, the higher the possibility for injury &/or more serious injury.

Earlier in this thread I also pointed out how a wing & it's huge side panels .. after a flip .. can literally TRAP a driver in the cockpit .. especially considering todays high backed & sided enveloping seats, high cowls, high right side rock/mud clod shields, the wing & it's huge side panels crushed and jammed down on & around the cage. .... The car on it's side or upside down, driver trapped, fuel running out, all the known HOT spots on a race car that could ignite the fuel. If the track crew is just a few seconds too far away &/or not all that competitent .. it's a receipe for DISASTER!!

Historically regional racing organizations/clubs are"self serving", meaning they are governed by racers .. racers that make rules for themselves and usually (being nice) forget to include or consider the wants & needs of the fans that literally $$support$$ this sport. The way I see it, wings were put on race cars by racers, FOR racers!!!!

On a different, but kind of parrallel note .... Not too long ago I went to a combination wingless midget / modified stock car show. Keep in mind that the fans there only see the midgets visit once a year. From my (midget/sprint car) point of view it was a good to better show .. but to the fans sitting around me it sucked. Why? The midgets were pushed off in a slow & unorganized manner, with no one of competience direction it. No one (on the PA system) even bothered to explain why the cars had to be pushed off. The fans were impatiently mumbling!! .... Now the fans are accustomed to see their stock cars start a short distance before the starters stand, there is a cone on the guard rail where they're to start accellerating. The fans anticipate / expect this. Now without any explaination (PA system or otherwise) the midgets start way down the track, deep in the fourth corner. The weekly (stock car) fans sitting around me were lost. They didn't know the race had started and if they did, why &/or where it did. Early in the race there was a "Tommy Tipover" in the first corner. A car that lazily tipped over on it's side. For safety, the race was red flagged. The cars needed it be pushed off again (once more, no explaination why they needed to be pushed) and this time was even more caiotic, more disorganized, took much longer than the initial one. NO ONE in charge &/or directing the push off this time. Now the fans around me were really grumbling!! During the race .. whether it was the lack of transponders on the midgets .. or the the person running the score board being unfamiliar with the midgets (car recognition is a BIG part of it) the score board was dark/blank. Once cars started to be lapped almost no one around my knew who was in the lead &/or in the top five.

To me, this race was a perfect example of RACERS (maybe unwittingly) putting on a race for THEMSELVES!!!!!! To me, it's no wonder why the midgets in this area have little to no following.

Bob .. I apologize for you being caught up in my rant .... hopefully my last rant of the year.

 

Bob Cicconi? How the hell are you, guy?

John Potts

 

I keep looking at the car in post #12511 and it looks very familar. Did Jay Woodside ever drive this car? Either way, it's beautiful.

 

Yes, he did.

 

I am working on a art project for Dick Woodland for his museum in Paso Robles, Ca. As I must work from black and white photos I need help on the color of one of the cars. I am drawing the CRA Bromme 1962 sprinter that I saw at Clovis when it first came out Allen Heath driving. The drawing I am doing is from 1964 with Heath in the car. From the photo below does anyone know the colors

 

Hey Bob, you will not remember me but I definitly remember you! The first time I ever went into the pits you pitted next to my cousin Danny Williams Jr., it was Anderson, IN in 1988. I still have the pit pass, i was sitting in his car with his helmet on acting like I was racing and you came by and asked me if I was winning! I also met you many times at the weekly autograph sessions at IRP for thursday night thunder I will always think of you as quite the funny guy. You always had a smile on your face, welcome to the HAMB. Post some pics of yourself would love to see them.

Bob Shutt

 

Here is a pic I took of one of Chuck Kidwells helmets and face masks one day when he let me use some of his tools. Guys that ran with these made contemporary racers look like sissys! Balls of steel man!

Bob Shutt

 

Hi Steve,

Andy Gump was White / Blue with Goldleaf #1 and Red roll bar. If you search "RM auctions - Joe's Garage" look under Bromme sprint car.

Actually a friend from work [Quinn Epperly's son John] worked with Bruce Jr. on the restoration. When I see him next week I will ask him what shade of blue is on the car. Good luck with your project - please post pics.

Offy 220

 

Steve, Joe MacPherson's auction by RM had pictures of the car restored it was white with blue trim and red pin stripe. I think it is now in Speedy Bill's museum, Was the 2nd scallop red? The Dick Woodland Museum in Paso is cool! Have to get back up there! Some great race cars.